Cooker lid

[Doodlebug]

An interesting one this. Now we all know that if the gas rings stay on when the cooker lid is closed then its an ID situation. The question I have is.......
If you remove the lid, it's no longer an ID situation as the risk has been removed. So is it acceptable to remove the lid? I've already put this to a few GSR safety inspectors and I've had different opinions on it.
My opinion is, you are disabling a safety device, so how can it be acceptable.
Interested in hearing your views on this.


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[mountainman]

It would depend on you own interpretation of the purpose of the lid IMO.
I would say that the lid is a decorative feature and is not essential to the safe operation of the appliance.
It then follows that the lid interlock is only required if the lid is capable of being closed.
If the lid is removed then the safety device is no longer required so the appliance is safe to use.

 

[zeebeedee]

I'd agree with that!

 

[Doodlebug]

What's to stop someone putting a lid back on? Isn't it best to fix the safety device?


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[zeebeedee]

What's to stop someone reconnecting a dangerous boiler after you leave? Same could be said for every unsafe situation.

 

[mountainman]

What's to stop someone reconnecting a dangerous boiler after you leave? Same could be said for every unsafe situation.

Very true.

 

[Doodlebug]

What's to stop someone reconnecting a dangerous boiler after you leave? Same could be said for every unsafe situation.

The difference is, a lid can be put on by a customer or DIY person without touching the gas supply.


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[Doodlebug]

Someone show me where it's written down that its acceptable to disable a safety device. Believe it or not I sort of agree with you on this, I can't see why you can't just remove the lid but that doesn't make it right.


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[Billy Bob Bob]

Someone show me where it's written down that its acceptable to disable a safety device. Believe it or not I sort of agree with you on this, I can't see why you can't just remove the lid but that doesn't make it right.


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its the old chesnut cant override a safety device,we would be in the brown stuff very deeply if we did

 

[mountainman]

Someone show me where it's written down that its acceptable to disable a safety device. Believe it or not I sort of agree with you on this, I can't see why you can't just remove the lid but that doesn't make it right.


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How does removing the lid disable the safety device?

 

[TBServices]

How does removing the lid disable the safety device?

The lid operates the shutoff valve on a freestanding oven. No lid, no shutoff.


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[mountainman]

The lid operates the shutoff valve on a freestanding oven. No lid, no shutoff.


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No lid, no shutoff device required 😉

 

[Doodlebug]

It's a funny one this and I can see both sides of it. I just wonder what a Gas Safe inspector would say.


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[mountainman]

It's a funny one this and I can see both sides of it. I just wonder what a Gas Safe inspector would say.


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I know what I'd say as I've already said it and I consider myself as competent as any gas safe inspector.

Excuse me for a moment while I leave the forum for my latest humility treatment...

 

[Doodlebug]

I know what I'd say as I've already said it and I consider myself as competent as any gas safe inspector.

Excuse me for a moment while I leave the forum for my latest humility treatment...

Pmsl like it.


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[mountainman]

MM returns to the forum accompanied by several crates of beer and a KFC Super Bargain Bucket.
Help yourselves gang!

🙂🙂🙂

 

[Millsy 82]

I spoke to gas safe on this. It is not to manufacturers design or specification so it is AR

 

[mountainman]

I spoke to gas safe on this. It is not to manufacturers design or specification so it is AR

At risk of what, exactly?

 

[Nostrum]

A lot of companies see this as ID, AR if you ask me.

 

[Nostrum]

oh, you mean removing the lid!

I can't see the problem in it myself. If needs be i'm sure you could butcher the hinges to stop a lid being put back on.

 

[Doodlebug]

I spoke to gas safe on this. It is not to manufacturers design or specification so it is AR

What's AR? If you mean the lid not shutting the gas off, then no it's ID, if you mean it's lid has been removed then why is it AR?


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[Millsy 82]

If the lid is still on and the safety does not shut off it is ID if the lid has been removed then it is not to manufacturers instructions so it is AR.

 

[REDSAW]

so what would you class a cooker with no oven door? incomplete gas appliance?

 

[Doodlebug]

so what would you class a cooker with no oven door? incomplete gas appliance?

What would you class a cooker with no door seals?


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[AWheating]

you are altering the design of the appliance by removing any part of it. would you not have to gain manufactures permission to do this?

 

[mountainman]

so what would you class a cooker with no oven door? incomplete gas appliance?

I'd call it a flueless DFE space heater lol

 

[Doodlebug]

you are altering the design of the appliance by removing any part of it. would you not have to gain manufactures permission to do this?

That's exactly what I would do, and if they said it was ok to remove lid, I would request it in writing.


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[mountainman]

That's exactly what I would do, and if they said it was ok to remove lid, I would request it in writing.


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So, what would you do with the appliance whilst you are awaiting the arrival of the manufacturers permission?

 

[Doodlebug]

So, what would you do with the appliance whilst you are awaiting the arrival of the manufacturers permission?

If its beyond repair, ie: unable to repair shut off valve or replace because part obsolete, then I would follow the unsafe situations procedure and disconnect the cooker from the gas supply. If the customer refused disconnection, I would leave connected, report to Transco and get a job number which would then cover me. You have to look after yourself in this job. Remember, your the last man on the job. If there was an incident and you ended up in a court of law, your defence would be what? Sorry m'lord, I didn't think anyone would put the lid back on.


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[mountainman]

What if you made sure that the lid couldn't be refitted, ie cut off the hinges as per an earlier post?

Are we qualified, experienced, professional engineers who are capable and qualified to make judgement calls and decisions.

Or are we just trained fearful monkeys following the letter of the constantly changing manual??

 

[Doodlebug]

What if you made sure that the lid couldn't be refitted, ie cut off the hinges as per an earlier post?

Are we qualified, experienced, professional engineers who are capable and qualified to make judgement calls and decisions.

Or are we just trained fearful monkeys following the letter of the constantly changing manual??

I think it's down to the manufacture to decide if you can take a hacksaw to their appliances and start removing or disabling a safety valve. I personally don't see a problem in removing the lid but is it acceptable?


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[mountainman]

Who said anything about removing or disabling a safety valve?

I would make a decision based on my expertise, training and experience and stand fully by my decision.

Namby pamby 'I've got to refer this to my supervisor, manufacturer or whoever' is de-valueing our trade and reducing some of us to trembling 'part swappers'

I am a professional gas engineer and will stand up and be counted as a professional, if I wanted a quiet unchallenging life I would be working in a safe non-technical trade such as chippie, spread or spark.

 

[Barry98]

Spark lmao I feel another bout coming on

 

[wards]

okay so you remove the lid which in turn disables the safety device.the safety device is there to prevent the lid from being closed.no lid no problem,you then re install the lid therefore enabling the safety device to function.whats the issue or am i missing something.

 

[Doodlebug]

okay so you remove the lid which in turn disables the safety device.the safety device is there to prevent the lid from being closed.no lid no problem,you then re install the lid therefore enabling the safety device to function.whats the issue or am i missing something.

The safety valve doesn't work.



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[Doodlebug]

Who said anything about removing or disabling a safety valve?

I would make a decision based on my expertise, training and experience and stand fully by my decision.

Namby pamby 'I've got to refer this to my supervisor, manufacturer or whoever' is de-valueing our trade and reducing some of us to trembling 'part swappers'

I am a professional gas engineer and will stand up and be counted as a professional, if I wanted a quiet unchallenging life I would be working in a safe non-technical trade such as chippie, spread or spark.

Good answer mate. Where on here do you click on like? Do you have to go into web view first?


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[wards]

why would you worry about a valve that does not control anything?its not being deactivated and would still work if the lid was replaced?

 

[Doodlebug]

why would you worry about a valve that does not control anything?its not being deactivated and would still work if the lid was replaced?

It controls the flow of gas to the cooker rings and It's not working, in other words when the lid is closed it's not shutting the gas off, so if you remove the lid then you have removed the risk but if someone puts the lid back on then the risk is there once more. Get it? Lol

 

[Millsy 82]

I have removed a couple of lids in the past couple of years filled out the paper work got it signed if the customer wants to reinstall the lid it is totally up to them I have a signed form saying that I have AR the cooker its their problem then.

 

[AWheating]

its easy to say just go ahead and do it, but you need to be able to protect yourself legally from lossing your job or registration or even stand up in a court.

The customer wont protect you, the next engineer that enters the property may report you for removing/altering safe or not. What actions will gas safe/the hse take?

you could say stick to the rules and keep your income?

 

[Nostrum]

Why not just replace the valve, all have a big hug and go home.

 

[wards]

It controls the flow of gas to the cooker rings and It's not working, in other words when the lid is closed it's not shutting the gas off, so if you remove the lid then you have removed the risk but if someone puts the lid back on then the risk is there once more. Get it? Lol

yes the control is still working once the lid has been replaced.so the issue is what?

 

[AWheating]

yes the control is still working once the lid has been replaced.so the issue is what?

the discussion was about when a safety control fails and you remove the lid to avoid classing it as AR. If somebody refits the lid the control will still not work.

 

[stevetheplumber]

What if you made sure that the lid couldn't be refitted, ie cut off the hinges as per an earlier post? computer says no syndrome

Are we qualified, experienced, professional engineers who are capable and qualified to make judgement calls and decisions.
Or are we just trained fearful monkeys following the letter of the constantly changing manual??

now days its the latter the drones are being turned out by the queen bees at the training center computer says no syndrome

 

[Doodlebug]

yes the control is still working once the lid has been replaced.so the issue is what?

Do you really not know how a safety cut-off lid works. :0


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[Doodlebug]

now days its the latter the drones are being turned out by the queen bees at the training center computer says no syndrome

Sorry, am I in the wrong place, I thought this was a GSR forum.


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[Doodlebug]

the discussion was about when a safety control fails and you remove the lid to avoid classing it as AR. If somebody refits the lid the control will still not work.

It would actually be to avoid classing it as an ID situation.


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[tamz]

9/10 it's quicker to fix it correctly (for free if need be) than write out the paperwork. Not exactly brain surgery is it?

 

[Doodlebug]

9/10 it's quicker to fix it correctly (for free if need be) than write out the paperwork. Not exactly brain surgery is it?

I've freed a few in the past, but the scenario is, it's bust, beyond repair and the part is now obsolete. Remove the lid or not?


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[tamz]

Cap it :lol:

 

[Doodlebug]

Cap it :lol:

Tofo lol


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[AWheating]

It would actually be to avoid classing it as an ID situation.


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sorry dad 🙂

 

[wards]

oops should have read the whole thread.doh

 

[AWheating]

we have all done the same LOL me probably too offten.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Common Sense by Mike Jackson1, on Flickr

 

[arran197]

At the end of the day, is it worth getting in a decision with someone over it, classify it and tell them it needs repairing correctly and then leave it in their hands. IMO, it's a safety valve, it's not working, therefore it's ID. I suppose you could say removing the lid on a cooker with a valve is a bit like modifying a gas fire so the thermocouple isn't required. You can still turn it on and off, but it doesn't work as it was intended.

 

[Mike Jackson]

As far as I'm concerned the obligation is to make it safe. The cut off valve is there to shut off the gas supply to the hob should the lid be inadvertently closed whilst the burners are on. Removal of the lid makes it safe. yes the customer could potentially refit it but they can also block up ventilation that you've cleared, fit a cupboard too low over a cooker etc. As long as I've left it safe and got a signature I'm happy. I know full well that customers have blocked up vents the minute I've walked out of the door, I'm not going to worry about it, I've done my job correctly. If they want to kill themselves it's their lookout.

Also bear in mind that a lot of models are available with or without a lid anyway.