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B
Billy Bob Bob
R.I.P to a great man Nelson Mandela | Jacob Zuma Addresses South Africa... | Stuff.co.nz
P
PlumbBobBob
R
Ray Stafford
Aye. Complex story. One man's terrorist - another man's freedom fighter?
R
Ray Stafford
I went to a DTI do once, where he was a speaker. Just me, him and about 10,000 other people. 🙂
Before he came on stage, there was the usual movement of people taking their seats, getting comfortable, chatting away.
There was a middle aged, grey haired bloke on stage, pottering about, organising some papers, adjusting the microphone. No one took any notice of him and the low murmur continued.
When Nelson Mandela walked on, suddenly the atmosphere was electrifying. The grey haired bloke who everyone had been ignoring did the intro - he was John Major - prime minister at that time. Didn't have a ounce of the charisma that Mandela had.
Before he came on stage, there was the usual movement of people taking their seats, getting comfortable, chatting away.
There was a middle aged, grey haired bloke on stage, pottering about, organising some papers, adjusting the microphone. No one took any notice of him and the low murmur continued.
When Nelson Mandela walked on, suddenly the atmosphere was electrifying. The grey haired bloke who everyone had been ignoring did the intro - he was John Major - prime minister at that time. Didn't have a ounce of the charisma that Mandela had.
Please excuse my ignorance , could anyone explain what has he done an why is he a good man ! I have never knew about his work all I know is his name and he is something to do with South Africa
B
Billy Bob Bob
here you go stan Nelson Mandela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
T
Toxic Ted
I have listened to more than one S Afrfican white who has said that he was a terrorist and i have also listened to reports from all the usual sources telling how he suffered for the good of the people...........i have no view on the matter as i have no real experience of the man, but it is easy to get carried away with the romance of a story ...........if that story is accurate. He did bring hope to so many in a time of unrest so i think he has earned the right to rest in peace.
R
Ray Stafford
The South African story is a complicated one, and certainly not as "black and white" - forgive the appalling pun - as many would have you believe.
I spent some time out there - it seems like a lifetime ago, but at one point we had the export licence for John Guest in Southern Africa - SA, Namibia, Zimbabwe and Angola.
I took the trouble to read all the history - not just the recent stuff, but right back. Its not a simple story, and rewards some patient study. And lets not forget, he was awarded the Nobel peace prize JOINTLY with F W de Klerk.
It takes two to make peace.
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I am sorry Ray but peace can NOT be made !!!
Peace can only be given by the more powerful side to the weaker one ......
i is never been in SA , but I is keeping an eye of what is going on around the world , this days as I am only 34
Peace can only be given by the more powerful side to the weaker one ......
i is never been in SA , but I is keeping an eye of what is going on around the world , this days as I am only 34
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R
Ray Stafford
I dunno Stan. Its a bit late at night for such deep stuff, but the situation in SA was asymmetric.
The whites had all the money and most of the guns.
The blacks had the moral high ground, the international support and the population numbers. And some of the guns.
I think NM and FWdeK did pretty well under the circumstances. Have a read of NM's biography - "A long walk to freedom". Its anything but one-sided - a tribute to the man's intellectual strength.
Ray
R
Ray Stafford
Sure - if you mean Umkhonto we Sizwe - spear of the nation. Abbreviated to MK.
It was the armed wing of the ANC in the 60s and 70s.
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R
Ray Stafford
G
Gray0689
He did seem a good man
Yes he was a terrorist but the repression in South Africa was terrible so someone had to stand
On the other hand his wife was an evil pig
osama bin laden - Google Search
isnt this man with similar history what he was one of the best USA secret agent , and then it was terrorist ......
isnt this man with similar history what he was one of the best USA secret agent , and then it was terrorist ......
G
Gray0689
Not a secret agent but a member of one of the richest family's in the world
Trained by covert USA & U.K. agency's and an out and out fanatic
This sort of thing keeps biting the USA and uk in bum they arm them train then then they turn on them
G
Gray0689
D
Dotty
And fortunately recent findings means it looks like all their hens are coming home to roost!
You read about Breen and Buchanon? The collusion between the Gardai and the IRA?
Northern Ireland will never have true peace, the loyalist terrorists colluded with the army and the ruc to kill and maim, now we find out the nationalists colluded with the Gardai to kill and maim.The sad thing is the difference is their religous beliefs which are pretty much the same thing to most outsiders
please explain what has he achieved ? I am not winding you up just interest as I am not informed what exactly he has achieved .
L
lame plumber
K
kay-jay
Not really.
Depends on your notion of equality.
All the end of apartheid brought was that one couldn't segregate and marginalise black people. Didnt really achieve much in the experience of many s.africans as the white ruling class simply switched from playing the race card to adoption of an economic model which saw poor people segregated and marginalised based on opportunities or lack thereof for the low income.
The status quo was largely (and still is) maintained in townships across s.a as the poot are also black.
The underclass are simply labelled peasants and not k.......'s and n.......'s
Why isn't this a free forum ? And everyone can say what they want , or not
L
lame plumber
One would hope that a bit of respect is due to some one like Mandella, which is sadly lacking in this free country of ours that also has children turning upto to school with no shoes or coats, according to my daughter who teaches in Hackney at the moment.
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Not really! When thatcher died did people not say derogatory things about her?
Bin Laden was killed and I didn't see persons quoting him online,and unfortunately that's what Mandela was,he was essentially a terrorist,the same as Bin Laden. He did turn things around after but like I say if you kill numerous innocent people you can't be redeemed in my eyes. It's my opinion,one which I'm entitled to,I'm not being racist or speaking out of turn IMHO
For the younger generation amongst us it started as the "whites" ruled the country and the "non-whites" were the scum and as such there was strict rules and the two were not allowed to mix in the same place in any shape or form. The goverment said It was simply them and us and we are better, stop and search was nothing compared to what was going on, punishment was harsh and brutal and there was no appeal as such.
Then people got together and their action was to attacked goverment buildings and establishments with minor related deaths but as always some deaths did occurr and the world started to notice. The people demonstrating were outlawed and went underground before being rounded up and arrested for treason and it all kicked off. Mandela didn`t start it he simply voiced his opinion and people listened and his name spread, he was a man that had forsight and forgiveness in him that eventually lead to the country being where it is now.
Yes this is a boiled down version but thats how it all started.
Then people got together and their action was to attacked goverment buildings and establishments with minor related deaths but as always some deaths did occurr and the world started to notice. The people demonstrating were outlawed and went underground before being rounded up and arrested for treason and it all kicked off. Mandela didn`t start it he simply voiced his opinion and people listened and his name spread, he was a man that had forsight and forgiveness in him that eventually lead to the country being where it is now.
Yes this is a boiled down version but thats how it all started.
Almost 30 years ago on the 20th of May 1983 a bomb exploded in Church Street in Pretoria, planted by the Marxist ANC terrorists, killing 19
innocent civilian people and injuring 217.
The bombs were authorized by Communist scum Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo and had the blessing of Nelson Mandela himself.
There were applause and cheers of joy and support from all around the world for the ANC.
Sorry but the hypocrisy is sickening.
A small reminder, ANC... just a few of your own "dastardly" and "despicable" work...
1981 - 2 car bombs at Durban showrooms
1983 - Church Street Bomb (killed 19, wounded 217)
1984 - Durban car bomb (killed 5, wounded 27)
1985-1987 - At least 150 land mines on farm roads (killed 125)
1985 - Amanzimtoti shopping centre bomb (killed 5 people, including 3 children)
1986 - Magoo's Bar bomb (killed 3, wounded 69)
1986 - Newcastle Court bomb (wounded 24)
1987 - Johannesburg Court bomb (killed 3, wounded 10)
1987 - Wits command centre car bomb (killed 1, wounded 68)
1988 - Johannesburg video arcade (killed 1 unborn baby, wounded 10)
1988 - Roodepoort bank bomb (killed 4, wounded 18)
1988 - Pretoria Police housing unit, 2 bombs (wounded 3)
1988 - Magistrate's Court bomb (killed 3)
1988 - Benoni Wimpy Bar bomb (killed 1, wounded 56)
1988 - Witbank shopping centre bomb (killed 2, wounded 42)
1988 - Ellis Park Rugby Stadium car bomb (killed 2, wounded 37)
Late 1980s - numerous Wimpy Restaurant bombs (killed many, wounded many)
And people wonder why???????
Just something to think over....
Terrorism at it's most brutal
innocent civilian people and injuring 217.
The bombs were authorized by Communist scum Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo and had the blessing of Nelson Mandela himself.
There were applause and cheers of joy and support from all around the world for the ANC.
Sorry but the hypocrisy is sickening.
A small reminder, ANC... just a few of your own "dastardly" and "despicable" work...
1981 - 2 car bombs at Durban showrooms
1983 - Church Street Bomb (killed 19, wounded 217)
1984 - Durban car bomb (killed 5, wounded 27)
1985-1987 - At least 150 land mines on farm roads (killed 125)
1985 - Amanzimtoti shopping centre bomb (killed 5 people, including 3 children)
1986 - Magoo's Bar bomb (killed 3, wounded 69)
1986 - Newcastle Court bomb (wounded 24)
1987 - Johannesburg Court bomb (killed 3, wounded 10)
1987 - Wits command centre car bomb (killed 1, wounded 68)
1988 - Johannesburg video arcade (killed 1 unborn baby, wounded 10)
1988 - Roodepoort bank bomb (killed 4, wounded 18)
1988 - Pretoria Police housing unit, 2 bombs (wounded 3)
1988 - Magistrate's Court bomb (killed 3)
1988 - Benoni Wimpy Bar bomb (killed 1, wounded 56)
1988 - Witbank shopping centre bomb (killed 2, wounded 42)
1988 - Ellis Park Rugby Stadium car bomb (killed 2, wounded 37)
Late 1980s - numerous Wimpy Restaurant bombs (killed many, wounded many)
And people wonder why???????
Just something to think over....
Terrorism at it's most brutal
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Some of those 'minor killings'
they weren't government buildings...note the death of an unborn baby!!
they weren't government buildings...note the death of an unborn baby!!
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L
lame plumber
you forget why they did what they did it seems, if the chinese ran this country and whites were treated like the blacks in s africa I for one would act in the same way as Mandella. when you make your comments, you dont seem to realise the reasons and actions were born of desparation.
No I do!!! But why kill innocent people? Why bomb arcades,restaurants and shopping centres?
Why kill innocent people out of desperation?
there should be no excuse for doing that!! Children and unborn children?? Howay man...there isn't an excuse you could even dream up that would make that sound ok to any human being!
there is no way you can phrase it in away that I would find acceptable.
Why kill innocent people out of desperation?
there should be no excuse for doing that!! Children and unborn children?? Howay man...there isn't an excuse you could even dream up that would make that sound ok to any human being!
there is no way you can phrase it in away that I would find acceptable.
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If they had problems with government why not atack government members them self ? Was not that hard back in the days "they" even took Keneddy down
L
lame plumber
you would be best to read into the history in a bit more detail to understand the whys and wherefores, its not as simple as a few bombs as you make out. the bbc politised version currently playing gives a slight insight into the whole picture.
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Agree with lame on this one, a great man has passed away and some are trying to belittle his effect on freeing the black majority and giving them the chance to have a say in their destiny. And just for the record heres another historical terrorist George Washington first President of the USA
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It's not a bad thing no and I didn't once say it was. What I did say however was to get to that you carry out murders of innocent children and other non legitimate targets. That's to be commended is it?
If Jefaz facts are right, shouldn't these things be taken into account. Yes he did great things. But does that cancel out wrong doings, the taking of women and children. I for one, think not.
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L
lame plumber
problem with all these situations is that it isnt that simple and unless you have lived through it your comprehension of the situation will never be the same as those who were there at the time. Jefaz hasnt been looking at the whole picture from start to finish and Mandelas greatness came through forgiveness and how he managed to get both sides to forgive all that happened without the need for imprisionment of the perpetrators on either side, then move forward and help the s african people
Sorry but if someone's guilty of harming and killing innocents, there is no redemption or forgiveness.
My opinion, like it or lump it.
Also like to add I don't know the full facts.
L
lame plumber
K
kirkgas
Why does he have to keep his feelings to himself at this time, a terrorist has died, at least he isn't being hypocritical like the politicians will be, I don't know the full history of the struggle in SA, and I know laterally Mandela was a hero to a lot of people, but like most convicted to life in jail it's easy to change and get released, Winnie Mandela was a complete nutcase and power freak while Nelson was in jail, Google Mandela United football club, and stompie macazie ( probably not spelled correctly) he was 14" abducted and killed by her henchmen at her orders,
K
kirkgas
He was also a supporter of the IRA, and was quoted as saying they should not hand in their guns until they got what they wanted, so in effect putting at risk Britons if the fight continued, ok he might have seen the IRA struggle as similar to his, as is his choice, but if that's his opinion then he isn't a man I respect, did he then also condone the treacherous acts they carried out in their name, Gerry Adams and his bunch of henchmen are trying to be all legal now, but their acts won't be forgotten either
All people are good and bad and except for the few, Hyndley, Brady etc, but when somebody dies then everybody tends to remember the good. My view is quite simplistic, I couldn't give a monkeys. It's more for the people who have benefitted or the opposite to pass their opinions. We have merely been witness to what the press want us to see.
D
Dotty
Mandela was captured, put on trial and imprisoned in 1962. He was assigned as the lowest grade of prisoner. He wasn't permitted newspapers, was allowed one monitored visit every six months and his incoming and outgoing mail was heavily censured until shortly before his release in 1990. He effectively became a 'non-person.'
He was hardly in a position to mastermind acts of terrorism.
Your move batman.
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L
lame plumber
my point is that you need to see the whole picture of what happened over there not look at individual incidents, no one has mentioned that innocents were shot in the back by the ruling parties police when they had peaceful demonstrations which lead to the events that followed. winnie M is not the one being discussed and a few glib one liners on here are an insult to the man and what he helped achieve for his county and the world in general. Hence why my opinion is that if you dont know at least part of the story you cant make a constructive comment about the whole history of what happened. Listing the actions of one side is an example of how polititians work day to day, theres 2 sides to every story that need to be examined.
R
Ray Stafford
Coming off the immediate issues that, tbh are probably a bit emotive to be discussed while the man is still cooling in his box, I came across some fascinating stuff when I was reading up on South African history.
Try a google search on the Mfecane or the Xhosa teenage would be Joan of Arc, Nongqawuse. Or the history of the San people.
Sometimes we think that we Europeans have all the good history stories.
Try a google search on the Mfecane or the Xhosa teenage would be Joan of Arc, Nongqawuse. Or the history of the San people.
Sometimes we think that we Europeans have all the good history stories.
T
TBServices
The way I see it, there are many prominent figures throughout history, who have done bad things for the greater good.
Seems to me, that Mandela did things that yes, we can agree are not cool, but at least his motivations were sound, and he wasn't a religious nutter, which is the biggest flaw against any argument trying to compare him to Bin Laden or the IRA.
Seems to me, that Mandela did things that yes, we can agree are not cool, but at least his motivations were sound, and he wasn't a religious nutter, which is the biggest flaw against any argument trying to compare him to Bin Laden or the IRA.
Really? Because I don't condone or forgive the killing of innocents? And again for the record, I don't know if he is guilty of the aforementioned crimes.
Just for arguments sake, are you allowed drugs in prison? No, but it still goes on. It's naive to think that he had no influence from his cell.
regrds robin.
again I'm not sure of the facts.
D
Dotty
You're talking about our prisons where the namby pamby hand wringing apologists have a say.
If they were in SA you think apartheid would've rumbled on for so long?.
Not disputing MK and the ANC committed some terrible, terrible atrocities. How influential Mandela was?
Not very after 1962 I'd say.
R
Ray Stafford
I think that conditions on Robben Island, at least in the early years, were really very different to HMP Winchester.
From what I understand, his influence from prison would not have been operational. I am not sure that he would have been considered the senior man anyway - I think that Walter Sisulu would have been thought of as the most senior ANC/MK prisoner.
The terrorist acts you're referring to were in the 80's. In the early 60's the MK was still in its infancy, it was concerned with organising public unrest in the form of strikes and protests. They started arming and training themselves as guerrillas before Mandela was incarcerated but their acts were targeted at sabotaging infrastructure such as power stations, refineries and military targets. The bombing campaign you all seem to be referring to was in the 80's when a lot of civilians were killed in a similar style to the IRA bombings in the UK. Once Mandela was jailed he was no longer involved in active service or decision making. I'm not sure if any civilians were killed in the infrastructure attacks he would have been party to but, hey, you can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs.
K
kirkgas
People seem to be mentioning sinn fein/pira but are forgetting the loyalist terrorists and agitators such as Paisley who preached oppression and wanted an apartheid in Ulster.The fact is most of the political parties in NI were all linked to paramilitary/terrorists but are now working together to try and have some form of peace just like Mandela/ANC worked with the SA government to rid the country of Apartheid
You have your facts wrong regarding Ulster. That is why we in the UK should be careful to look at S.Africa & Mandela & make judgements.
Firstly, I listened to Paisley for many years & though he was loud mouthed in his speeches & no doubt didn't warm to many Republicans, he did tell the truth, no matter how hard that is to swallow! He didn't want an Apartheid" in Ulster & that is a disgraceful thing to say & is actually what the Republican side really want - take a look at what happened in the Republic of Ireland!
Remember that the Southern Irish government were hostile to the North - long before Paisley was a boy & they funded the IRA.
Fact is IRA Sein Fein were the biggest trouble makers in Ireland & friends of Mandelas. They are now slowly shown to be a bunch of evil people.
The reason why people are linking Gerry Adams & co to Mandela is that people vote for Sein Fein - a party that supported murder. The British people in Northern Ireland do not vote for loyalist terrorists however, - we believe that murdering is wrong.
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What did Paisley tell the truth about?. The fact is there was oppression of the catholics in Ulster in reference to jobs housing etc there are the well known firms that wouldn't employ across secterian lines. Too many people think all the terrorism in Ulster was down to the ira due to them attacking the mainland. Unfortunaly there are bigots,loudmouths,pyschos and murderers on both sides of the divide, and a result is that we have to put up with known terrorist supporters on both sides in Stormont.Hopefully they will work together to mantain peace
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R
Ray Stafford
Its a double edged sword.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
You just have to be prepared to see the history from every angle. Including some unpopular ones.
R
Ray Stafford
On your question about "what did Paisley tell the truth about", - obviously you think he told lies?
If so, then I put this question to you - what was not the truth that he said?
From the 60s he told us the truth of the evils of the Irish government & indeed the British government & controversially, the evil within the Roman Catholic Church at that time. Now the truth bit by bit is coming out thankfully & Paisleys true words on both governments, the RC church & the false news fed to & by the media is very apparent.
As to terrorist supporters in Stormont, I think they are Sinn Fein IRA only as the vast majority of British voters here rightly don't vote for terrorists.
When you mention discrimination in employment or otherwise, you should be more fair & also mention the discrimination that Protestants or any British person was subjected by Catholics both in the North & the South of Ireland. Failure to do so actually makes a lie of the complete history of relations & discriminates against any British people in Ireland.
Sorry this is off the thread, but is relevant to what we all read & believe about in other parts of the world, things are not always black & white & Mandela & the ANC is one example.
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D
Dotty
I phrased it wrong. Every Easter here one community upsets the other by celebrating and parading the Easter Uprising of 1919. Then come July the other community causes upset by celebrating and parading the Battle of the Boyne.
While both them events are remembered the way they are it'll be a long, long time before there's true and real peace here.
Best I did actually mean what subjects you was refering to not calling a Paisley a liar, I also meant that firms did not employ because of secteranism on both sides of the divide, I admit i didn't like Paisley senior or his bigoted son the same as I dont like bigots of any religion,colour or race.Thankfully the truth has come out on alot of the issues you mentioned I am glad that I left Ulster when I was young enough to get all the religous/nationalist/loyalist brainwashing out of my head. As I said before we are going very off topic to the opening post
I have walked that long road to freedom.
I have tried not to falter.
I have made missteps along the way, but I have discovered the secret that: after climbing a great hill, one finds that there are many more hills to climb.
I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can only rest for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not ended.
HAVE A DESERVED REST GREAT MAN. You deserve the rest now.
RIP NELSON Mandela
I have tried not to falter.
I have made missteps along the way, but I have discovered the secret that: after climbing a great hill, one finds that there are many more hills to climb.
I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can only rest for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not ended.
HAVE A DESERVED REST GREAT MAN. You deserve the rest now.
RIP NELSON Mandela
J
julesverne
i thought this was an interesting article
BBC News - Nelson Mandela death: His mixed relationship with Britain
BBC News - Nelson Mandela death: His mixed relationship with Britain
C
Centralheatking
Anyway - One Sunday afternoon a long time ago I was sat in ft of my fire waiting for
'Going for a Song - or Antiques Roadshow' and the bbc changed the whole schedule
cause Mr. Mandela had been released from prison - I was a bit grumpy at the time
about this but he has proved himself to be an absolute icon and we should all always
remember him -
I like the idea of the 'Global Nelson Mandela Day' everybody everywhere
stops to think........CHK
'Going for a Song - or Antiques Roadshow' and the bbc changed the whole schedule
cause Mr. Mandela had been released from prison - I was a bit grumpy at the time
about this but he has proved himself to be an absolute icon and we should all always
remember him -
I like the idea of the 'Global Nelson Mandela Day' everybody everywhere
stops to think........CHK
Disgraceful comment! Did wonder how long before someone uses that one because they disagree with someone's opinion!
Maybe Godwins Law applies to the KKK as well as the Nazis in which case it was only a matter of time.
L
lame plumber
as he stated you can all have an opinion on here, good or bad, if you read the background to my comment and saw what had been previously said, you may have understood my comment. to explain, the poster had stated he knew nothing about the facts but was still willing to offer a comment, hence my answer!!. not exactly disgraceful really
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Mandela did admit that like anyone else he has made mistakes, but after his incarceration he proved to be a person with great humanity and integrity.
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