Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?

[armyash]

Hi everyone

Had a call this afternoon from a customer, I fitted a toilet in their half finished cloakroom approximately 2months ago. The floor was newly tiled, and there was an open stud wall at the back where it looks like there was a cistern at one point.

I fitted a toilet, supplied by the customer and I drilled through the tiles for the fixings. Phone call today to say she has had to have the tiles ripped up, And the central heating pipe repaired.

I have spoken to her partner who is a decent bloke and he told me what's happened. He said she wants to take me to court but he said he would speak to me first to sort something out.

She doesn't want me back in the house which is why they didn't have me do the repairs. I said they should have called me.

I don't want to go to court over it but I don't want to be slagged off online either. I had no way of knowing the heating pipes were there as I didn't do the previous work.

I boarded up the stud wall and I also renewed the old basin for a small wall hung unit/basin. Which there is no issue with.

They have said repairs are approximately £350. I would have done the repairs for free (obviously) if they had let me know. They have said they will send me pictures and copies of bills for repairs so they are not trying it on.

What would you do? I'm thinking offer them 50% of the repair bill as they could have come to me for it. I don't want to be a walkover but I don't want to bend over either.

 

[armyash]

Also I didn't know the heating pipes were there when I drilled through.

 

[Last Plumber]

Why does she not want you back in the house?

How did you drill through the Heating pipes and not know about it there and then?

Why has it taken so long for it to become evident?

I would offer nothing yet or apologise!

You need to think and talk through the situation first in my opinion.

 

[rpm]

Pretty sure it is written down somewhere that UFH heating pipes shouldn`t have been laid in that area under the pan.
(Seem to remember it from a post earlier this year or the end of the last year).

2 months seems a long time for the fault to show unless you just nicked a pipe, as said admit to nothing at this stage (same as a car prang) and aren`t you supposed to be aloud to investigate at the very least?

 

[townfanjon]

I have had something similar Ash . 18 months ago and I am still not happy .

The first call of a leak quite simply should have been you , I smell a rat here .

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If they didn't give you chance to repair it then they don't have anything to stand on just say that if they would of called me back I would of done the repair and any damage foc

I'm sorry accidents do happen but not often

 

[armyash]

She just doesn't want me back in the house because she is not happy I have caused this problem.

Ill add more info because there is nothing worse than half a story.

I fitted a boiler for a bloke about 18months ago. Happy with my work, passed my details on to a colleague, this colleague is the problem customers partner (who called me today). I went and serviced his boiler approximately 15months ago, no probs, then this year he called and asked if I could service his girlfriends boiler. His girlfriend is this customer with the leak.

I went and serviced the boiler, he was there also, she was funny from the minute I arrived, seems the type who thinks they are important and probably get to boss people around in work. They seemed to be not getting on, she kept snapping at him. I felt uncomfortable, within 20mins she asked how long I would be. When I was done he even apologised outside and said she was in a mood. This is when I gave a price to fit the toilet and basin.

Returned to carry out the work, all sorted.

There was no indication I had hit a
heating pipe and I've no idea yet why I am only just hearing about it. I have said I will call him back tomorrow to discuss maters. (once I have advice from everyone here)

I haven't admitted to anything yet.

 

[armyash]

Shauncorbs, thanks that's what I was initially thinking but I know the minute I refuse to give them the money I'll be on court and may lose.

 

[townfanjon]

Its going to be hard and yes you can do without the hassle but I would be tempted to call her bluff, like we all have said , she should have given you chance to repair it , assuming that was what happened .

 

[armyash]

Thanks for all the replies so far everyone. It is possible this is genuine I don't think they are trying it on, the issue I have is them calling me and wanting money without the opportunity to repair.

 

[armyash]

I have no reason to lie to any of you.

Only other info is he text yesterday asking me to call, I called him back this afternoon and he said what had happened. I've text him back tonight saying call him tomorrow.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shauncorbs, thanks that's what I was initially thinking but I know the minute I refuse to give them the money I'll be on court and may lose.

They still have to give you the option for you to repair

They can't say no give me the money and I will do the repair myself etc

Might be worth having a word / start the ball rolling with trading standards etc

 

[armyash]

They have had the repairs done before I even found out.

 

[armyash]

Do they legally have to give me the chance to repair?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Do they legally have to give me the chance to repair?

Yes but trading standards should confirm this

It's like buying a new car and the wheels falling off and going to your local garage to fix it

Then sending a bill to the manufacturer etc

 

[Harvest Fields]

Do they legally have to give me the chance to repair?

Yes mate they do.

 

[armyash]

Perfect, thanks for all the replies.

Her partner, who asked me to do the work is a good guy and that's why he has phoned me first. Doesn't mean I'm going to throw money at them though.

I'll check out trading standards and go from there. I don't want it to go to court. Is it worth me sending them a letter recorded delivery and explaining they should have given me an opportunity to repair etc?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would speak to ts first and let them deal with it if they will

 

[armyash]

Thanks everyone. Will update asap.

 

[WaterTight]

Sounds like worst case scenario is being slagged off online. Which you cannot guard against 100% no matter what you do.

 

[Chalked]

They can’t take you to court for something that was not proven to be your fault, or at least you had to be given the first chance to rectify.
Tell her to take you to court, she won’t win.

Don’t worry about been slagged off to her mates. These things happen.

 

[armyash]

Thanks everyone, I'll speak to trading standards.

This customer has spent a lot of money on her house, whole place has been done up so I can understand she is frustrated but I'd be interested to know why the wc where I was working was left unfinished. I won't have any contact with them until I have spoken to TS.

Her partner doesn't live there, she paid for the work so after speaking to TS any future comms will go to her recorded delivery.

If I was her I'd be annoyed with the people who ran the heating pipes where the toilet was going.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Just be very careful what you say over the phone (Could be recording you) Don't put anything in writing that they can use against you, Bet the pig is a solicitor , I wont do work for them worse than Builders,

 

[oz-plumber]

If it were me, I would sit still and wait for the photos and the copies of the invoices for the repairs.

I would say to the customer something like, 'just send me through the photos and invoices and I will get something sorted for you'

After you have received the photos and invoices, contact your insurance company and let them handle the situation.

CC the customer into the email you send to your insurance company.
Let them deal with your insurance company.

Try not to get too emotionally involved with the situation.
It sounds dodgy, so they may back off when you put a formal claim through your insurance, because they will have to prove they are not making a fraudulent claim.

 

[Scott_D]

Smells fishy
Wait for the pictures and invoices, may call the company they used to confirm.

 

[Welder]

Firstly, been there done it, got the chuffin tee shirt, had the endless sleepless nights and been to court.

Secondly, and more importantly some facts followed by potential advice based on my experience.

1. They have a legal obligation to do a number of things. They should have notified you of the issue immediately it arose. No ifs, no buts. They should have given you the opportunity to resolve the issue IF it was 'reasonable' that the problem was of your making. Now here, best practice comes into play along with your experience or more specifically the experience of what they term a normal plumber. What is meant by that is; would a normal plumber have done what you did? Could a normal plumber have foreseen that UFH was installed under the pot? Judges are incredibly fair minded and I can tell you the likelihood here is that they will find in your favour on this particular issue.
2. Even if she didn't want you back, they have an obligation to you to offer you the opportunity to resolve is as I said. That means you would have probably called upon a mate to do you a favour and at mates rates. The customers DOES NOT have the right to choose any Tom Dick or Harry to resolve it. Further, you have the right to both see and agree to any repairs and works you may be potentially liable for. You were not offered that.
3. I get the impression she's effectively blackmailing you to pay out. DO NOT. Please please please get her to put all this Rubbish in writing, text or simply call her and get her to say it all again. BUY a recording app for your phone NOW as that can be used in evidence. This is potentially deformation of character and would effectively negate her whole claim as she'd be seen to be someone who is trying to extort from you.

DO NOT. DO NOT. DO NOT. DO NOT give in. A mistake has been made. However, you DO NOT Have xray vision. You cannot have known that there were UFH heating pipes under a pot. It is NOT industry practice to do that so you WOULD NOT in any reasonable circumstance have allowed for that.

She is trying to extort money from you when this is nothing more than a simple accident. She is wrong, wrong wrong and no court in the land will find for her A) it aint your fault and B) when she has behaved as she has.

What to do next?

First, start logging all the time and expense you incur dealing with it.

I would ask for all information including every bit of correspondence between all parties. Its called 'disclosure'. I would find out who the contractor is that fixed it and speak to them too. They will have been paid. RECORD everything said but do it discretely.

IF, she complies, IF she has been genuine, IF she has been reasonable then make her an offer of a part of the cost as a gesture of goodwill but be CLEAR that the offer is NOT tied to any admittance of guilt. Its called an offer without prejudice. Make sure its plain its a once only offer in full and final settlement.

If she goes off on one - take her to court. If she starts proceedings on you then let it happen. DO NOT engage a solicitor for the hearings. Get advice before hand but no more. When you turn up without a brief, the judge is legally obliged to support you to support yourself and believe me thats worth its weight in gold. Basically they do the work for you.

It isn't fun. it isn't clever and it will change you. However, do not let her beat you. You do not deserve it and the courts will not let her get away with tearing you apart.

If you want to talk just give me a call (David 07803 136613) but just don't let it get you down. You're in the right, she will not win and you'll get it sorted.

 

[armyash]

Dave wow thank you for that great reply.

Received pictures yesterday and a 6 second video clip. It does show I drilled through. Pipe.

Customers partner called today.

Apparently the plumber who did the repair said I should have checked for pipes - not sure how I would have done that, is it possible?

Said I should have stuck the toilet down with adhesive instead. I said if I stuck it down and it came loose I'd be in trouble for that if someone got injured and I hadn't screwed it.

Apparently the pipes have been there since the house was built.

They want £300. I said I'm not agreeing to anything, or admitting anything. I said I want a couple of days to seek advice.

I don't want to go to court.

I don't want to give them £300, it's more than I got for the job. I had to chase the basin pipes in the wall etc. Underpriced it my mistake but I don't want to be out of pocket further.

I will follow the advice given above.

I was going to call and say Im not accepting liability but I will give you £100 as a goodwill gesture.

I knew nothing of any of this and the repairs have been done before I was informed of the whole thing.

 

[rpm]

Could the pipe in the photos be any pipe or does it clearly show the tiled floor as you remember it, secondly why has it taken almost 2 months to show as a leak?

 

[armyash]

It is the floor where I was working.

I don't know why it's taken 2 months and they haven't said.

I'm disappointed it's happened. The thing that's bothering me the most is her. He is acting as a go between but I don't like how they are saying I have to pay. Especially since I wasn't given a chance to do anything about it. I said to him on the phone I could have sorted it or had someone sort it. He is being decent but he is saying I caused it so I have to pay.

 

[rpm]

Big long shot, just wondering if they have had the toilet changed since for whatever reason or your screws removed and longer screws been used?
It is the time delay I don't understand tbh.

 

[Scott_D]

Is it a pressurised or open vent system?
Copper pipe or plastic?

 

[armyash]

It all seems genuine that I have caused this. I don't know how it's taken so long to show, I don't know why they have not told me sooner.

They have said "you've caused the leak, you have to pay"

If they had told me about it, I would have sorted it on a day off so it would have cost me my time and minimal materials. If she was adamant she didn't want me in the house, I could have arranged for repairs to be done.

I don't see how they are allowed to have someone else do the work and bill me for it.

I'm going to speak to trading standards tomorrow then get as much info from the customer as possible. I'll try and avoid going to court but I'm not being bullied in to handing over £300 just like that.

I'm not happy with the way she has gone about things.

 

[armyash]

It's a combi. Copper pipe.

I'll post a picture.

 

[armyash]

How could I have checked for pipes?

Am I supposed to check for pipes before every screw on every job?

 

[armyash]

Here is a picture sent of the repair.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is that a hole in the centre pipe / left one ?

 

[rpm]

I see the screw hole in the pan is the side fitting type, I`ve seen pieces of wood (3 x 3 x 5" long) stuck to tile`s before now replacing the L brackets.

 

[Scott_D]

Very unlucky to have hit it.
I'm not sure how you could have checked or known there would be a pipe there.

 

[armyash]

Is that a hole in the centre pipe / left one ?

It does look like it. I haven't asked about that other pipe yet.

I have text and asked for a copy of the invoice and contact details for the company who did the repairs, I'm going to ask how I could have checked for pipes. just hope the guy isn't the type to start talking down to me.

I'm also going to get the details of the pan and see if it says the pan should be fixed down in the MIs. I'm assuming it will as there is fixing points.

rpm that's a good tip, bit late for this job but will save it happening again.

I'm not a difficult person by any means, probably too easy going if anything. I bend over backwards to help people. I regularly work all hours night and day to get people out of a fix. Even if legally I don't have to pay, I'd be willing to give them £100 as a goodwill gesture as I feel bad about it but she hasn't had the decency to call. Its been pretty much a case of pay up or we'll see you in court.

 

[Harvest Fields]

It's a combi. Copper pipe.

I'll post a picture.

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

 

[rpm]

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

From day 1

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 33659[/QUOTE]

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

not just everyday, it would have dropped in hours. Also too, the previous engineer said the pipes have been there since the house was built🙂 it’s a pure lie, the solder joints look very new and freshly done. Was the pipework actually covered? Cannot really see the pipe cover. The previous installer must have been out there everyday and filled the system. Highly unlikely that she trusted him for so long that they didn’t f.... up the system. Usually that would be the first guy who would be pushed away. She would have called other engineers to find out where the actual leak is. I know it for certain because I just have the same issue with a customer who had a building team in to refurbish the whole house. They even have changed the boiler weeks after due to the leak issue. The leak kept on going even after installing a new boiler so called out leakbuster and they couldn’t find the leak. The leak is surely in the groundfloor like the one you have. The is been going on for months now.

All I want to say is that she would have been ringing everyday different engineers to find the leak because the boiler would go in lockout wouldn’t it. So, my first question would bm))je who found the leak, how long did it take them to determine where ipthe leak was located. Only the initial installer would have known that there are pipes below the pan ... so perhaps they had a leaky joint and just used a screw to blame so one else’s !???? That’s what people do just not to be the cause but someone else’s. Look at the pipes they are new though...

Trust each and everyone on here - you are right and you do not need to be afraid.

 

[armyash]

I think the newly soldered pipe in the picture is the repair that has been made.

Nothing confirmed yet.

I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.

I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.

Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

 

[Harvest Fields]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

I would want to also see as above.

 

[armyash]

That is all they have sent me, as well as a short video clip which doesn't clarify anything apart from a leak, nothing is visible.

 

[rpm]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

I would want to also see as above.

Very slim chance I`d say.

 

[Old Account]

I think the newly soldered pipe in the picture is the repair that has been made.

Nothing confirmed yet.

I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.

I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.

Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.

Alright can happen noth8ng wrong with that. But how comes after 2 months coming back to you ? Who repaired it? Same old engineer ? Highly unlikely unless he knew where to look for as this shouldn’t be installed like this. As above you need some evidence pictures with puncture pipework

 

[Welder]

Right. Let's get some things straight ArmyAsh.

Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.

Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.

The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.

NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.

In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?

Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the Sod out of due to your nature.

She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.

 

[Old Account]

Right. Let's get some things straight ArmyAsh.

Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.

Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.

The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.

NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.

In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?

Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the **** out of due to your nature.

She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.

Pretty much what I tried to say. Obviously my English is t that great but common 2months pressure drops? 2months always the same Installer back in the house ? You would give him a chance perhaps 2 but then you would look for another engineer because the trust will perish. Then another engineer who would tell you there is a leak on your heating system. He would have inspected it but couldn’t find it because it is in the ground so no physical evidence of a leak. I would even say you are unable to see the leak as it’s going down and not won’t leave any trace. So however, I guess everyone here has given you the best ideas and solution what to do. Just keep us updated that would be great

 

[Last Plumber]

Was there a WC there before or is it a new installation?

 

[Best]

That left hand pipe looks to be actually a pipe still with insulation on it. Photo is hard to see clearly though. And the pipes appear to be too shallow a depth?
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -

(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.

Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.

 

[Stigster]

The claimant clearly doesn't have a leg to stand on. If it does go to court I don't think there's any chance they would find in her favour. The input from those on the forum on this one has been nothing short of excellent.

 

[armyash]

The replies to this thread have been great. It's all a lot to take in so far but in getting there.

I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually

Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.

But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.

I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.

I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.

The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?

My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.

Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.

I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.


The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.

I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.

And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Just a bit to add

You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc

You can pad that out with some extra

 

[rpm]

Toilet change to modern type with different fixings Ash, can`t see how you were to know what was under the floor as you didn`t tile it. Like the point raised about how deep (or not) the pipe was under the pan.
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).

 

[Last Plumber]

If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.

Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.

I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.

Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.

 

[rpm]

If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.

Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.

I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.

Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.

See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

How do you know the old toilet didn't cause it when installed etc?

 

[rpm]

How do you know the old toilet didn't cause it when installed etc?

No pressure drop?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No pressure drop?

Could the plug of sealed the hole / point of the screw etc

 

[rpm]

Could the plug of sealed the hole / point of the screw etc

On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).

 

[Harvest Fields]

On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).

Not again rpm 😱😱

 

[ShaunCorbs]

On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).

Moved both posts to his ongoing topic as he jumped on someone's else's didn't yours ?

 

[rpm]

Not that one Shaun, the muppet who hijacked a thread with a different topic, I wasn`t even rude for once 😀

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Not that one Shaun, the muppet who hijacked a thread with a different topic, I wasn`t even rude for once 😀

Yes that's the one I moved your two posts to the original one he posted ages ago did yours go missing ?

 

[rpm]

Yes that's the one I moved your two posts to the original one he posted ages ago did yours go missing ?

No idea.
Apologises Ash.

 

[armyash]

See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).

I see plenty of pans stuck down too but I see it as lazy unless it's known there are pipes beneath. I'm sure most mi's on pans would say to fix down with correct fixings. I could be wrong and maybe they say it's OK to stick down.

 

[armyash]

No idea.
Apologises Ash.

No probs.

Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.

I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.

 

[Scott_D]

What is the money they want for?
The pipe repair or full job, repair, tile, refit the toilet, inhibitor etc

 

[rpm]

No probs.

Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.

I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.

Sounds useful Ash, which app is it?
I agree with you doing it properly with the fixings by the way.

 

[armyash]

They have said they want 300, the total cost for repairs is more I believe from what they have said but I don't know thr final figure. I don't know if it's more than one firm involved or exactly what they are paying for.

 

[armyash]

Sounds useful Ash, which app is it?
I agree with you doing it properly with the fixings by the way.

Its called 'call recorder'

You may get ads on your phone from downloading it but there looks to be a few apps that do the same thing.

This came top of the search results and no problems so far.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Fyi you need to inform the customer your recording there phone call

 

[armyash]

Fyi you need to inform the customer your recording there phone call

I will do that. I haven't recorded any calls with them yet but will make them aware that all communication will be recorded.

 

[rpm]

tbh, I`m thinking of the answer machine calls where the customers speak at 100mph and I struggle to get their name and address.
What is it with some people speaking to a machine for gawd sake!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

tbh, I`m thinking of the answer machine calls where the customers speak at 100mph and I struggle to get their name and address.
What is it with some people speaking to a machine for gawd sake!

or keep saying emm emmm then the phone goes dead

 

[armyash]

The customers partner also said to me she would be happy to accept the payment in instalments "because she knows you don't have a lot of money"

That was a strange thing to say as I've never discussed my finances with them, it makes me believe even more that she is a bit of a snob. Must be because I get dirty in work I couldn't possibly earn good money. Even when I would say hello or at the end of the job I was overly polite if anything always grateful for my payment and she would look at me like something she had stood in.

I earn half decent money and my partner earns good money. Not that this has anything to do with the matter but I took it as a way to belittle me.

 

[rpm]

Mate on my life, went to maybe a £4mill house the other week, knocked on the front door and the lady asked if I would use the door round the back!!!

 

[rpm]

The customers partner also said to me she would be happy to accept the payment in instalments "because she knows you don't have a lot of money"

That was a strange thing to say as I've never discussed my finances with them, it makes me believe even more that she is a bit of a snob. Must be because I get dirty in work I couldn't possibly earn good money. Even when I would say hello or at the end of the job I was overly polite if anything always grateful for my payment and she would look at me like something she had stood in.

I earn half decent money and my partner earns good money. Not that this has anything to do with the matter but I took it as a way to belittle me.

Excellent, offer her a £1 a week 😎

 

[armyash]

I'm going to write a letter tomorrow to explain everything to them. I will ask for all the relevant information, say why I don't accept liability.

I will say I surely needed to be made aware of the situation before any repairs were Carried out or at least been informed sooner than I have been.

Will say all calls will be recorded and logged.

Will explain it was an accident and that all reasonable care was taken when carrying out the work. Will add some plumbing related stuff in about pipe in screeded floor depths, not being run in the best place. Toilet was already there.

Will add plenty more and may have to write it a few times. Will send recorded delivery.

All thanks to the replies on here! Thanks.

If it ended up in court and I lost. I could live with that but I don't like how it's all been done.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i would say this "Will explain it was an accident" as it sort of admits

i would say along the lines of

sometimes accidents happen etc

 

[armyash]

Does anyone have a link to something that shows I legally should have been made aware of the problem or been given a chance to arrange repairs before it got this far.

I have been told to quote consumer act 2015 but I can't find anything that shows what I need. Im hoping to quote something in the letter.

 

[Scott_D]

I would probably say something along the lines of
Please send me pictures and copies of all invoices and reports so that I can pass it onto my insurance company to investigate. Unfortunately as you didn't notify me of the issue, give me chance to rectify myself ,arrange another comply to do so or involve my insurance provider I don't think there is anything that can be done.

 

[Best]

You will probably over think this and worry too much.
Just keep gathering any evidence and facts together and stay calm. Also hope the woman gets angry and says something stupid in writing.
Get a friend who has some experience in legal sort of issues to help you at each stage.

 

[Welder]

Shaun etc. Sorry, but you are wrong on the recording of your own calls.

You DO NOT need to inform anyone you are recording UNLESS it is to be used by another party. That was straight from the ICO and when we joked about that being recorded he said perfectly fine.

YOU may legally record what you like so long as it is for your OWN use. That includes using it as evidence if ness as that's for you. As soon as third parties are involved (training, quality etc) then notification is needed.

I'll carry on reading now...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun etc. Sorry, but you are wrong on the recording of your own calls.

You DO NOT need to inform anyone you are recording UNLESS it is to be used by another party. That was straight from the ICO and when we joked about that being recorded he said perfectly fine.

YOU may legally record what you like so long as it is for your OWN use. That includes using it as evidence if ness as that's for you. As soon as third parties are involved (training, quality etc) then notification is needed.

I'll carry on reading now...

You sure about this as there's new rulings coming down due to the Facebook stuff that includes all records etc

 

[Best]

You sure about this as there's new rulings coming down due to the Facebook stuff that includes all records etc

Still think the rule - as long as the information isn't passed on to a third party, then it is still legal.
I did it once to protect myself from any possible allegations and it proved handy to note take later precisely what was said.
Sadly I think recording audio and often video is now the way to do a lot of business, just to keep accuracy and to protect ourselves from false allegations.

 

[Welder]

AA. Your life, but as I've explained, I've been there done it and won.

As I have already said, you are being mugged. This is actually VERY simple to resolve so do not be sidetracked.

Send a letter asking for full details of everything. By that I mean a complete breakdown - her story and copies of everything. Happy to put it together for you if it would help. You have my number so you can text me an email address. The point of this is to see what they have. You cannot begin to negotiate if you have no info and no point to start from. The letter needs to 'infer' that its point is to assess your liability so you can cough up an appropriate amount. However it must not even infer any form of liability.

Once the info is received it shows their hand. Once their hand is exposed an appropriate response can be formulated. It allows you to go back and either say 'fine here's £50' or 'go away'.

DO NOT try to make a letter look legal. It is fraught with problems and will immediately put them on the defensive. It has to be an honest letter (always keep 1/2 and eye on the fact it may end up in court), reasonable and open. In other words very carefully crafted an unambiguous in its content.

This can very easily go away. Let me know if I can help.

 

[Welder]

100%. GDPR applies from 25th May and until then its old (98) data protection act. Even so, so long as it's for personal use its fine. GDPR is all about non exploitation.

 

[Old Account]

That’s not even close to the repair costs. I would have thought about £500 and more. How comes that the engineer who got called out knew exactly where to look for? That would have been one of the needle in te hay stack one.

I’m pretty sure the previous one has caused it and blames it on you

 

[armyash]

Yorkshire dave, I will text you my email address this morning and I will call at some point this afternoon when I am free. Thank you.

 

[Last Plumber]

Without having to read through all this post again, did you see the 'drilled hole', I mean could it have been a pitted copper pipe?
If you've already said then ignore me, I have lost track a bit now.

 

[Last Plumber]

See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).

I agree with that one. It happens a lot and may well have been done here to avoid drilling pipes.

 

[armyash]

That’s not even close to the repair costs. I would have thought about £500 and more. How comes that the engineer who got called out knew exactly where to look for? That would have been one of the needle in te hay stack one.

I’m pretty sure the previous one has caused it and blames it on you

I don't know what the final costs are, just that I've been asked for £300.

 

[armyash]

Without having to read through all this post again, did you see the 'drilled hole', I mean could it have been a pitted copper pipe?
If you've already said then ignore me, I have lost track a bit now.

Only picture I have of the damage is the picture I have posted on this thread.

 

[Best]

£300 is a modest sum and often a small amount like that is a ploy to get the tradesperson to just pay up to avoid any trouble.
Interesting she said she would accept instalments as she knows you don’t have much money (in her opinion).
That’s very telling, as she assumes she is getting cash payments from you, rather than paid from your insurance.

 

[Last Plumber]

Only picture I have of the damage is the picture I have posted on this thread.

If you've not even seen the 'alleged drilled hole', then don't lose any more sleep. What are the grounds for taking you to Court?

That they allege you drilled through a pipe which came to light some months after but rather than give you the opportunity to investigate and rectify any mistake you might or might not have made, they decided to get another Plumber to repair it, discard the evidence and send you a photo of a repaired section of pipe along with an invoice for £300? Have you seen the invoice?


Honestly Ash, I doubt this would even get passed a solicitor never mind into a Court.
I would politely, in person, with her and her partner, explain that they should have contacted you as soon as they suspected a leak.
Don't get into an argument, just explain as nice as you can and walk away. I cannot see her taking this much further to be honest.
I know Solicitors near me (North West England) charge £240 per hour. Not many people would start that ball rolling for the sake of £300. Especially not if the case against you is as weak as it sounds.

I am only a Plumber offering advice and giving my opinion here. It is not legal advice from a professional legal person. I can only tell you what I would do in your shoes, as a Plumbing person. 😀

 

[Harvest Fields]

For all you know mate. The weight of the tile and the new toilet may have just shown a week joint in the pipe or better still the pipe could have just pin holed.

 

[Stigster]

No pressure drop?

About the pressure drop, it is unusual to find but I have come across a pipe that had been screwed into actually effectively sealing the leak. I don't think you could get it to seal if you actually tried but it can happen. I have been to a leak that was caused by a screw in a pipe that was damaged weeks ago but only started showing after some time. If you were to drill through tile and screed but not into the pipe and then banged a screw through the lot and into the pipe, I could see it sealing up or at the very least only showing a tiny pinhole type spray which might not show for a while.

Just a thought as to the unusual length of time between the work being carried out and the leak showing at the boiler.

Ash, after your call to trading standards to see where you stand I hope you at least feel a bit better about this horrible situation. I really think the law is on your side with this one.