Is that a hole in the centre pipe / left one ?
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Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?
- Thread starter armyash
- Start date
View the thread, titled "Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
It does look like it. I haven't asked about that other pipe yet.
I have text and asked for a copy of the invoice and contact details for the company who did the repairs, I'm going to ask how I could have checked for pipes. just hope the guy isn't the type to start talking down to me.
I'm also going to get the details of the pan and see if it says the pan should be fixed down in the MIs. I'm assuming it will as there is fixing points.
rpm that's a good tip, bit late for this job but will save it happening again.
I'm not a difficult person by any means, probably too easy going if anything. I bend over backwards to help people. I regularly work all hours night and day to get people out of a fix. Even if legally I don't have to pay, I'd be willing to give them £100 as a goodwill gesture as I feel bad about it but she hasn't had the decency to call. Its been pretty much a case of pay up or we'll see you in court.
No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.
From day 1
O
Old Account
View attachment 33659[/QUOTE]
All I want to say is that she would have been ringing everyday different engineers to find the leak because the boiler would go in lockout wouldn’t it. So, my first question would bm))je who found the leak, how long did it take them to determine where ipthe leak was located. Only the initial installer would have known that there are pipes below the pan ... so perhaps they had a leaky joint and just used a screw to blame so one else’s !???? That’s what people do just not to be the cause but someone else’s. Look at the pipes they are new though...
Trust each and everyone on here - you are right and you do not need to be afraid.
not just everyday, it would have dropped in hours. Also too, the previous engineer said the pipes have been there since the house was built🙂 it’s a pure lie, the solder joints look very new and freshly done. Was the pipework actually covered? Cannot really see the pipe cover. The previous installer must have been out there everyday and filled the system. Highly unlikely that she trusted him for so long that they didn’t f.... up the system. Usually that would be the first guy who would be pushed away. She would have called other engineers to find out where the actual leak is. I know it for certain because I just have the same issue with a customer who had a building team in to refurbish the whole house. They even have changed the boiler weeks after due to the leak issue. The leak kept on going even after installing a new boiler so called out leakbuster and they couldn’t find the leak. The leak is surely in the groundfloor like the one you have. The is been going on for months now.
All I want to say is that she would have been ringing everyday different engineers to find the leak because the boiler would go in lockout wouldn’t it. So, my first question would bm))je who found the leak, how long did it take them to determine where ipthe leak was located. Only the initial installer would have known that there are pipes below the pan ... so perhaps they had a leaky joint and just used a screw to blame so one else’s !???? That’s what people do just not to be the cause but someone else’s. Look at the pipes they are new though...
Trust each and everyone on here - you are right and you do not need to be afraid.
I think the newly soldered pipe in the picture is the repair that has been made.
Nothing confirmed yet.
I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.
I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.
Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.
Nothing confirmed yet.
I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.
I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.
Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.
also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc
I would want to also see as above.
O
Old Account
Alright can happen noth8ng wrong with that. But how comes after 2 months coming back to you ? Who repaired it? Same old engineer ? Highly unlikely unless he knew where to look for as this shouldn’t be installed like this. As above you need some evidence pictures with puncture pipework
W
Welder
Right. Let's get some things straight ArmyAsh.
Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.
Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.
The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.
NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.
In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?
Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the Sod out of due to your nature.
She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.
Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.
Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.
The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.
NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.
In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?
Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the Sod out of due to your nature.
She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.
O
Old Account
Pretty much what I tried to say. Obviously my English is t that great but common 2months pressure drops? 2months always the same Installer back in the house ? You would give him a chance perhaps 2 but then you would look for another engineer because the trust will perish. Then another engineer who would tell you there is a leak on your heating system. He would have inspected it but couldn’t find it because it is in the ground so no physical evidence of a leak. I would even say you are unable to see the leak as it’s going down and not won’t leave any trace. So however, I guess everyone here has given you the best ideas and solution what to do. Just keep us updated that would be great
Was there a WC there before or is it a new installation?
That left hand pipe looks to be actually a pipe still with insulation on it. Photo is hard to see clearly though. And the pipes appear to be too shallow a depth?
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -
(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.
Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -
(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.
Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.
The replies to this thread have been great. It's all a lot to take in so far but in getting there.
I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually
Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.
But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.
I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.
I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.
The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?
My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.
Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.
I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.
The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.
I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.
And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.
I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually
Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.
But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.
I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.
I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.
The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?
My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.
Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.
I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.
The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.
I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.
And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.
Just a bit to add
You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc
You can pad that out with some extra
You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc
You can pad that out with some extra
Toilet change to modern type with different fixings Ash, can`t see how you were to know what was under the floor as you didn`t tile it. Like the point raised about how deep (or not) the pipe was under the pan.
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).
If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.
Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.
I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.
Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.
I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.
Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).
How do you know the old toilet didn't cause it when installed etc?
No pressure drop?
On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).
No idea.
Apologises Ash.
No probs.
Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.
I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.
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