Was there a WC there before or is it a new installation?
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Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?
- Thread starter armyash
- Start date
View the thread, titled "Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
That left hand pipe looks to be actually a pipe still with insulation on it. Photo is hard to see clearly though. And the pipes appear to be too shallow a depth?
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -
(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.
Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -
(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.
Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.
The replies to this thread have been great. It's all a lot to take in so far but in getting there.
I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually
Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.
But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.
I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.
I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.
The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?
My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.
Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.
I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.
The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.
I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.
And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.
I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually
Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.
But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.
I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.
I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.
The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?
My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.
Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.
I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.
The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.
I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.
And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.
Just a bit to add
You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc
You can pad that out with some extra
You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc
You can pad that out with some extra
Toilet change to modern type with different fixings Ash, can`t see how you were to know what was under the floor as you didn`t tile it. Like the point raised about how deep (or not) the pipe was under the pan.
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).
If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.
Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.
I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.
Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.
I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.
Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).
How do you know the old toilet didn't cause it when installed etc?
No pressure drop?
On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).
No idea.
Apologises Ash.
No probs.
Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.
I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.
Sounds useful Ash, which app is it?
I agree with you doing it properly with the fixings by the way.
Fyi you need to inform the customer your recording there phone call
I will do that. I haven't recorded any calls with them yet but will make them aware that all communication will be recorded.
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