Thanks very much for your reply I really appreciate it. I will have to do something, this keeps happening to me!!
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Too far away otherwise I would have offered to do a written report free of charge. We need to get rid of these cowboy rip off merchants.
Thanks very much anyway, it was very good of you to offer. I had someone ask me to send them a video of the installation and he would send a report. I sent him the video and he just sent me a quote to redo it, I think that was maybe another one trying to rip me off. There's no getting away from them! Thanks again, I wish there were more people like you around. Take care.
I'd describe that as a sub-DIY level job to be honest. No care has been take there whatsoever.
Plastic always looks rubbish where it's exposed, especially heating pipes which get hot, then go softer, then sag/contort. I installed a rad run like this once because it's what the LL actually wanted, he wanted it done as cheaply as possible, and it looked awful. They got painted, and that then cracked like a snakeskin when the pipes heated and expanded.
As for the positioning, the legs are definitely not sufficient on their own, that could easily be knocked over. I'm guessing it was pretty heavy, and will be moreso once filled with water. Is this just going to end up in the middle of the room? It seems an odd place to put it.
Plastic always looks rubbish where it's exposed, especially heating pipes which get hot, then go softer, then sag/contort. I installed a rad run like this once because it's what the LL actually wanted, he wanted it done as cheaply as possible, and it looked awful. They got painted, and that then cracked like a snakeskin when the pipes heated and expanded.
As for the positioning, the legs are definitely not sufficient on their own, that could easily be knocked over. I'm guessing it was pretty heavy, and will be moreso once filled with water. Is this just going to end up in the middle of the room? It seems an odd place to put it.
Hi, thanks for replying. Yes it weighs about 30kg. It is in the middle of the loft floor. It is used for storage, long story, but the radiator was a last resort. I told him I was concerned about the stability and he said he would make sure it was secure, whilst it's stable, it can still be knocked over. The plumber says there's nothing wrong with his installation! And to make it worse, I didn't even want plastic in the first place!
I must say I would not have carried out that installation and been happy to leave it like that. I know this is an old thread, but I wish to comment for future reference as this is my industry and I would find it deeply disappointing if this kind of standard became acceptable. Whoever installed this is not serious competition to me, but I might take more than 3 hours. I am not going to comment on price as there are so many variables.
Not a fan of plastic pipe myself but it can be certainly be done more tidily than this. There are times when plastic is more appropriate than copper and I do use it from time to time. My main issues with it is that, to do it well is not necessarily easier than copper as it needs more support, nor is it necessarily cheaper than copper when you consider the fittings are expensive. I think most of the regulars on this forum would have done a better job if they had been asked to do this installation in PEX.
Rad2 - is the valve plumb or at a slight angle to the vertical? It would look better if it were plumb, but this is merely an aesthetic issue if the pipe is happy as it is.
Rad1 - why is this only half-painted?
Rad6 - the vertical pipes are the wrong length. There is no reason to have the fittings sitting in the void between the joists and then have to come back up to pass over the next joist. Also the horizontal pipe is the wrong length as the 90° bend is being tried to be pulled out of its natural angle (accommodated, luckily, by the natural flexibility of the pipe).
Rad4 - Collet clips are not mandatory as far as I am aware (unless this manufacturer specifies them), but I would have liked to see them used here, given the proximity of that release ring to the joist.
Rad3 - Why not cut the pipes to a length that allows them to sit parallel to the ceiling and to one another?
Rad7 - Unless the manufacturer specifies a certain clipping distance and this has not been adhered to, while one might like to see more clips, it may be a matter of opinion.
Rad9 - Not bad for underfloor pipework as it doesn't really need to look pretty, but would have been better to find another way of supporting the pipe than to sit it on the plasterboard. A noggin (basic method), or Munsen or similar clips attached to a threaded rod (advanced method), screwed to the sides of the joist would have been better. And I'm not happy with the proximity of those hot pipes to the electric cable when even a scrap of wood could have been used to keep them from touching. I'm not too worried about the bend in the pipe leaving the tee as it seems to me just the way the pipe wants to bend : could be tidier, but I don't think it's a technical problem.
As others have said, the Consumer Rights Act applies. With regard to the choice of pipe manufacturer, the installer is free to choose this (unless you agreed on a specific brand) but you have your consumer rights if the installation does not last 'a reasonable time'. The aesthetics of the job would probably not pass muster if this were an NVQ assessment in a City and Guilds college, so it could be argued that this is not 'reasonable quality', but I suppose it depends on what was discussed. Please don't explain it to me as I'm not the one you need to convince (in the nicest possible way, I'm not really interested in taking sides, I'm just commenting on the work itself).
As far as the flushing issue is concerned, the gold standard for any new radiator on an existing installation is cold flush, drain, hot flush with a system cleanser, drain, and refill. In practice, I don't insist on this standard most of the time and many customers, particularly with older systems, when we discuss the issues, decide to not bother, particularly when I can achieve a saving by freezing off a section, working, and reconnecting without draining most of the system at all. The main issues are that oil in the radiator from manufacture (and left in to protect from rust?) can damage rubber seals in the system, and flux in soldered joints (doesn't apply to you) can promote corrosion. As the rad manufacturer suggested flushing the 'system' they are not suggesting flushing the radiator before installation, so are only underlining what is already considered to be best practice in the industry.
One point of interest remains : why do you want a radiator in a loft?
Not a fan of plastic pipe myself but it can be certainly be done more tidily than this. There are times when plastic is more appropriate than copper and I do use it from time to time. My main issues with it is that, to do it well is not necessarily easier than copper as it needs more support, nor is it necessarily cheaper than copper when you consider the fittings are expensive. I think most of the regulars on this forum would have done a better job if they had been asked to do this installation in PEX.
Rad2 - is the valve plumb or at a slight angle to the vertical? It would look better if it were plumb, but this is merely an aesthetic issue if the pipe is happy as it is.
Rad1 - why is this only half-painted?
Rad6 - the vertical pipes are the wrong length. There is no reason to have the fittings sitting in the void between the joists and then have to come back up to pass over the next joist. Also the horizontal pipe is the wrong length as the 90° bend is being tried to be pulled out of its natural angle (accommodated, luckily, by the natural flexibility of the pipe).
Rad4 - Collet clips are not mandatory as far as I am aware (unless this manufacturer specifies them), but I would have liked to see them used here, given the proximity of that release ring to the joist.
Rad3 - Why not cut the pipes to a length that allows them to sit parallel to the ceiling and to one another?
Rad7 - Unless the manufacturer specifies a certain clipping distance and this has not been adhered to, while one might like to see more clips, it may be a matter of opinion.
Rad9 - Not bad for underfloor pipework as it doesn't really need to look pretty, but would have been better to find another way of supporting the pipe than to sit it on the plasterboard. A noggin (basic method), or Munsen or similar clips attached to a threaded rod (advanced method), screwed to the sides of the joist would have been better. And I'm not happy with the proximity of those hot pipes to the electric cable when even a scrap of wood could have been used to keep them from touching. I'm not too worried about the bend in the pipe leaving the tee as it seems to me just the way the pipe wants to bend : could be tidier, but I don't think it's a technical problem.
As others have said, the Consumer Rights Act applies. With regard to the choice of pipe manufacturer, the installer is free to choose this (unless you agreed on a specific brand) but you have your consumer rights if the installation does not last 'a reasonable time'. The aesthetics of the job would probably not pass muster if this were an NVQ assessment in a City and Guilds college, so it could be argued that this is not 'reasonable quality', but I suppose it depends on what was discussed. Please don't explain it to me as I'm not the one you need to convince (in the nicest possible way, I'm not really interested in taking sides, I'm just commenting on the work itself).
As far as the flushing issue is concerned, the gold standard for any new radiator on an existing installation is cold flush, drain, hot flush with a system cleanser, drain, and refill. In practice, I don't insist on this standard most of the time and many customers, particularly with older systems, when we discuss the issues, decide to not bother, particularly when I can achieve a saving by freezing off a section, working, and reconnecting without draining most of the system at all. The main issues are that oil in the radiator from manufacture (and left in to protect from rust?) can damage rubber seals in the system, and flux in soldered joints (doesn't apply to you) can promote corrosion. As the rad manufacturer suggested flushing the 'system' they are not suggesting flushing the radiator before installation, so are only underlining what is already considered to be best practice in the industry.
One point of interest remains : why do you want a radiator in a loft?
Hi, thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I did not know he was putting plastic in until he had done the job, I assumed he was using copper. The radiator is only half painted because without telling me he had only purchased a primed one and then proceeded to start spraying it in my loft with very high voc spray with no ventilation, with me and my son in the the upstairs rooms just below, I had to stop him because the fumes were unbearable. The house is very small, the white mist off the spray was all over everything, even downstairs. The radiator in the loft is a long story, but the short of it is, is it was a last resort due to the loft getting wet in the winter after having to completely seal it in to stop rats getting in that were entering the roof spaces along the row of houses. I had paid a lot to get ventilation put in but that didn't help, It is used for storage. I have had too many bad jobs done now, I have chronic health conditions and ended up having a breakdown over what tradesmen have done to my home over the past 5 years and it is still not sorted. I research them and don't go for the cheapest either. I have ended up in debt now because of them, I now don't have any confidence in any of them. We are therefore thinking of just trying to redo this installation ourselves in copper pipe using the Tectite sprint push fit fittings as recommended by another plumber on here, and a couple of compression slip couplers to rejoin the pipes further down. It would be too near the gas pipe to attempt to solder. We have had to redo most of the bad work that has been done by others.
I think that reinstalling the radiator in the roof is likely to be throwing good money after bad. The chances that a radiator will fix the 'loft getting wet' are near-zero.
In my opinion, you need to do three things:
(a) investigate how and where the water (or water vapour) is getting into the roof space;
(b) reduce the ingress as far as possible;
(c) understand and improve the ventilation of the space to the point it consistently keeps the humidity below the dew point.
Thanks very much for replying. I tried a small electric heater in there before getting the central heating one installed, believe it or not it does help massively. I have spoken to numerous roofers and ventilation specialists, payed out hundreds to get vents installed and been given conflicting advice. I have basically been told that to correct it, the whole roof would need to be redone with a new breathable felt, otherwise insulating it could make matters worse. So hopefully the radiator will suffice.
Hope it all works out for you, old chap. All I can suggest regarding the loft is try to limit any air from your house from getting up into your loft e.g. draft strips around your loft hatch and seal around any holes through your first floor plaster ceiling (like your plumber probably hasn't bothered), but I expect you are already on the case.
You could re-do with Tectite, though there's nothing wrong with plastic pipework, if done with a bit of care.
Sorry you've had such a bad experience with tradesmen in general. If it gives you a free laugh, I started thinking about training as a plumber after three registered gas installers failed to stop my boiler going into overheat lockout mode because none of them noticed it had been plumbed in backwards (many years before I bought the house). I ended up diagnosing the 'fault' myself and £3 of pipe fittings later, I had it working perfectly.
You could re-do with Tectite, though there's nothing wrong with plastic pipework, if done with a bit of care.
Sorry you've had such a bad experience with tradesmen in general. If it gives you a free laugh, I started thinking about training as a plumber after three registered gas installers failed to stop my boiler going into overheat lockout mode because none of them noticed it had been plumbed in backwards (many years before I bought the house). I ended up diagnosing the 'fault' myself and £3 of pipe fittings later, I had it working perfectly.
Old chap!! I'm a young lady!! Well, wrong side of 40, very nearing 50!!😂😂 Thanks very much for your reply again. A lot of the work I've had to do myself has been much more professional than the so called professionals, if I was not so ill, I would do it myself as a job 🙈
The plastic tee's under the floor are too big, the floor is pressing down on them and pulling the rest of the pipework, that's why I was thinking of using the tectite, because the fittings are much smaller. But I'm not sure about them being in a sealed wall. I am still debating what to do, obviously it would be better to be done in copper, soldered (if done properly) but I could not handle it going wrong again. And I have also noticed a very slight weep of brown liquid appearing from one of the connections on the radiator, it's just like a drop appears from under the connection each day. Can't try to put a slight turn on it, because it's one piece, so the whole fitting has to be turned, but obviously it is connected to the pipework. What would you suggest I do? Thanks
Hi, thanks for replying again. I have added a picture. It is coming from the radiator behind the connection, I can't try to nip it up a bit because the whole connection has to be turned, but obviously it is connected to the pipe work. I have since received a refund from the plumber after contacting trustatrader. I just do not think I can deal with getting someone else out and something else going wrong again. Do you think that that connection just needs redoing where it is leaking or do you think he could have damaged the radiator with it being cast iron, and do you think it would be okay long term using the tectite sprint copper tee and elbow fittings and copper compressions to rejoin the pipes and do it myself or am I best to just take another chance and get it soldered?
Thanks very much
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Looks like the screwed connection is weeping. If so, it's not likely to fail catastophically and if you are in a hard-water area it may even seal itself over the course of the oncoming heating season. It could, of course, be unscrewed and resealed easily enough, however. Likely he has used PTFE tape to make the seal - this isn't wrong, but there are better sealing materials out there (e.g. LSX, Loctite 55, or the old-fashioned but effective hemp and paste). I don't think I'd bother trying to nip it up. Unlikely to be damage to the radiator itself.
Regarding Tectite or compression under the floor, I can't really see a problem with them. I'd love it if you were to find yourself a decent local plumber you could trust, but it is hard to know who is actually any good (people usually get recommendations based on leaving things tidy rather than the quality of their non-visible work, I suspect).
Regarding Tectite or compression under the floor, I can't really see a problem with them. I'd love it if you were to find yourself a decent local plumber you could trust, but it is hard to know who is actually any good (people usually get recommendations based on leaving things tidy rather than the quality of their non-visible work, I suspect).
I have had so many bad tradesman here over the nearly 5 years since all the problems started. All very much researched first as well, as you have just pointed out, some of their worked looked okay, until I uncovered the hidden work. I have been asking for recommendations but everyone is saying the same thing, they have had people out and they have done a bad job or ripped them off or both. My next door neighbour has just paid a well reviewed plumber £180 to fix a leaking bathroom sink, has had to call him back again and it is still leaking! I have also been finding a lot of so called businesses that are supposed to be registered and when you go onto companies house to check, they have been struck off or the company has been dissolved and even more dangerously electricians and gas fitters claiming to be registered with the NECEIC or the gas safe register and they are not. It is like a minefield.
I have some of the Loctite 55 here, if I did have to end up redoing it myself. I would rather not, I am slightly concerned about the chemicals in the heating system eg: the inhibitor or from a chemical flush, damaging the o rings in the push fit fittings over time too. I will take your advice and try once more to get it done by a professional!! 🙈 and hope for the best.
Thank you very much for taking the time to help, I really appreciate it. Take care.
Well, the O rings will be designed to work with chemicals associated with central heating... when you think about it, boilers themselves contain plastic and rubber components these days, as do many radiator valves. But I take your point as I have replaced o rings that have failed e.g. in tap mechanisms or motorised valves whereas soldered joints and compression fittings often seem to be still good for service after 50 years or more.
You have my sympathy as the industry isn't all that well regulated. In theory you could try to find a Watersafe plumber, but I don't know what protection, if any, that gives you other than they take responsibility for complying with the so-called Water Regulations. I've only had my credentials checked once, by a landlord who was trying to find a reason not to get me to do some expensive work his tenants needed doing... he couldn't find me on the OFTEC or Gas-Safe registers which is hardly surprising seeing as I don't install boilers and am not registered with either scheme. The work was installing a shower pump, so neither scheme was in any way relevant anyway and then he continued to use his mate from down the farm or down the pub to maintain his property. You wouldn't find me on Companies House either as I am a sole-trader and not a company, so that doesn't help much either. Weirdly, there is no real way of proving you are a bona-fide sole-trader and paying tax, but I suppose a customer could find me on the waste carrier's register and ask to see details of my public-liability insurance... problem is, you could be fully legitimate and still be not very good at what you do.
There is (or was) a find a plumber section on this forum. If you are really lucky, one of the old hands from here might be local to you? I think you could read people's posts on here and know more about them than they themselves do. 🙂
I actually believe that a lot of the sole traders do a better job, I have had 2 in for other jobs after a company has made a mess. The only problem is you often don't have address details etc for them if anything was to go majorly wrong and a most of them are cash in hand and no receipt to prove that the job had been done by a professional if needed. I agree about there not being any way of proving you are a bona-fide sole trader, I had this discussion with my brother when he was one, he sprays cars and is the best in the area, but was not getting the work. Word got around eventually and that went for him in the end. But I think some kind of register for sole traders would be really helpful. And landlords are a law unto themselves!
I will have a look on the forum and see if I can find anybody local, but me and Lucky don't go in the same sentence unless it has UN in front of it!! 😌🙈
Thanks very much again.
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