Agreed mate but that's a bit different to Joe Public fitting it himself to save money then trying to get an engineer to sign off. Both need stronger penalties in my eyes
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
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surreygasman
Just don't get involved if you value your Gas Safe Registration. This is just encouraging the illegals to prosper. Let them have the aggro with the customer and Gas Safe when the customer dosent receive a correctly completed Benchmark doc (with FGA printout attached) AND a proper Building Regs Notification. Look at what we spend each year on registrations, ACS every five years, all test equipment, calibration fees etc etc etc - the list goes on.
The only way to increase safety and prevent Cowboys from working on jobs is the manufactures of gas appliance, and merchants tighten up. If each gas appliance sold had to be registered to a gas safe number and signed by the engineer before it was sold, it would reduce the rogue fitters.
All boilers have to be registered and serviced annually for manufactures to validate the warranty.
We all know this will never happen as all manufactures have to hit targets. If 1 manufacture does it they lose customers as the cheap landlord will just choose another manufacture that gives less aggro.
I'm a service agent for a boiler manufacture. The 1st thing I check for in warrenty calls is the gas safe installations cert, then the benchmark commissioning list. If it's been 12 months from install date then a proof of service. If these are not there, I have to say good bye and walk out.
At the same time it's about educating the public/customer.
The amount of time I've said to customers that they should be looking at the gas safe ID I have around my neck. For all they know it may have expired or I may not be competent to work on anything apart from pipe work.
What still shocks me is some people still thinks it's Corgi :13:
Gas safe need to do more to make people aware, and we as Gas Safe engineers can do more to help.
All boilers have to be registered and serviced annually for manufactures to validate the warranty.
We all know this will never happen as all manufactures have to hit targets. If 1 manufacture does it they lose customers as the cheap landlord will just choose another manufacture that gives less aggro.
I'm a service agent for a boiler manufacture. The 1st thing I check for in warrenty calls is the gas safe installations cert, then the benchmark commissioning list. If it's been 12 months from install date then a proof of service. If these are not there, I have to say good bye and walk out.
At the same time it's about educating the public/customer.
The amount of time I've said to customers that they should be looking at the gas safe ID I have around my neck. For all they know it may have expired or I may not be competent to work on anything apart from pipe work.
What still shocks me is some people still thinks it's Corgi :13:
Gas safe need to do more to make people aware, and we as Gas Safe engineers can do more to help.
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SteveWannadoGas
Am I being thick here? The issue is that the guy signed off unsafe work. Not that he signed off an installation. Had it been properly checked and was all safe, then would there still have been an issue?
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SteveWannadoGas
as far as im aware, anyone can run the pipes and hang the boiler etc. obviously, whoever signs it off is putting their registration on the line but that`s their call. its up to them to determine whether it is safe or not.
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SteveWannadoGas
lets say he had signed off a completely safe, well installed appliance. Would he still be prosecuted?
It isnt that he signed off someone elses work, its that he signed off someone elses dangerous work.
It isnt that he signed off someone elses work, its that he signed off someone elses dangerous work.
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SteveWannadoGas
thats a separate issue.
the point is, hes perfectly ok to sign off any work he wants to, but its his name on the line and if the job isnt up to scratch, then its him who will be answerable for that.
the point is, hes perfectly ok to sign off any work he wants to, but its his name on the line and if the job isnt up to scratch, then its him who will be answerable for that.
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Dotty
What is it you are failing to understand here?
Well installed or not is a moot point. Signing off an installation by someone who is not a gsr is illegal and could lead to you both being prosecuted.
You say you want to do gas, Steve.
That means you are prepared to spend a good bit of time and a fair bit of money becoming trained and registered.
Why risk it all by covering the aris of someone who not only cannot be bothered to get themselves trained and qualified but is also making a mockery of the industry in general and taking the absolute rise out of you in particular?
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newcastle phill
As above. The legal position regarding this is well documented - as are the consequences once found out.
Just about every scenario you can think of has been prosecuted - as well as a recent gsr (gas safe magazine) case with an engineer signing mates work off.
All it took was a customer complaint - gas safe became involved. Names were taken and asses hauled. They all hung each other - suspended prison sentences and fines enough to make a glass eye water..
Just about every scenario you can think of has been prosecuted - as well as a recent gsr (gas safe magazine) case with an engineer signing mates work off.
All it took was a customer complaint - gas safe became involved. Names were taken and asses hauled. They all hung each other - suspended prison sentences and fines enough to make a glass eye water..
To stick my head above the parapet, I think the problem is that there are too many RGIs (by which, to be clear, I don't mean a majority) whose work ethic is not significantly better than someone less qualified. This probably includes the person who would knowingly sign off someone else's work. The effect is that when an RGI turns up, there is not always the obvious difference there should be.
In an ideal world, every RGI would show up and be an obviously highly dedicated and trained professional with excellent communication skills whose work would be beyond criticism and would look good and hence impress even those whose knowledge stops them being able to appreciate the finer points. In practice, as with every trade, some do sloppy (not necessarily dangerous) work or are generally hamfisted.
But because it costs so much money to be an RGI (and here is the crux of my complaint), RGIs cost a lot more. It's not that RGIs are raking it in, but they have to pay a lot of fees and possibly these are excessive, and I suspect someone in the training/regulatory industry IS raking it in.
You will understand my point of view if you think that when I did my IPAF MEWPs training, I sat a practice multiple choice exam which I passed, then we did an hour's study and then took the _exact same_ exam again and I don't really think I learnt a lot. A couple of hours of practical and I had my certificate. Of course, because I requested familiarisation of the machinery before I used it (an IPAF requirement), I was never actually employed as a MEWP driver and thus I never got any return on my £180. Education or jobs for the boys?
So, to the untrained, an RGI is not always seen as better, (s)he just costs more.
I can well understand why someone with a good work ethic and pride would refuse to put his/her name to work carried out by others, but sadly qualifications are not the gold standard they should be and often genuine RGIs are probably strapped for cash (and trying to be nice) and take the attitude that if the install looks perfect, probably it is.
After all, I've run gas pipe under observation of a gas fitter, but obviously he wasn't looking over my shoulder at every stage of every joint on the pipe run. If he had been there would have been little point in using my labour instead of his own - there had to be an element of trust that I would to continue to work exactly as instructed and shown and not, say, switch from Everflux to LaCo half way through the job. So the difference between this situation and signing off someone else's work can, slowly and incrementally, become one of degrees.
However, as Croppie has pointed out, it seems from reading this thread that the law is pretty clear - it isn't legal to sign off someone else's work. Would I be right to assume that the reason SteveWannaDoGas is able to find this a debatable point is that a person signing off someone else's work would probably not have been pulled up on it if the work had been safe, although this does not change the law.
In an ideal world, every RGI would show up and be an obviously highly dedicated and trained professional with excellent communication skills whose work would be beyond criticism and would look good and hence impress even those whose knowledge stops them being able to appreciate the finer points. In practice, as with every trade, some do sloppy (not necessarily dangerous) work or are generally hamfisted.
But because it costs so much money to be an RGI (and here is the crux of my complaint), RGIs cost a lot more. It's not that RGIs are raking it in, but they have to pay a lot of fees and possibly these are excessive, and I suspect someone in the training/regulatory industry IS raking it in.
You will understand my point of view if you think that when I did my IPAF MEWPs training, I sat a practice multiple choice exam which I passed, then we did an hour's study and then took the _exact same_ exam again and I don't really think I learnt a lot. A couple of hours of practical and I had my certificate. Of course, because I requested familiarisation of the machinery before I used it (an IPAF requirement), I was never actually employed as a MEWP driver and thus I never got any return on my £180. Education or jobs for the boys?
So, to the untrained, an RGI is not always seen as better, (s)he just costs more.
I can well understand why someone with a good work ethic and pride would refuse to put his/her name to work carried out by others, but sadly qualifications are not the gold standard they should be and often genuine RGIs are probably strapped for cash (and trying to be nice) and take the attitude that if the install looks perfect, probably it is.
After all, I've run gas pipe under observation of a gas fitter, but obviously he wasn't looking over my shoulder at every stage of every joint on the pipe run. If he had been there would have been little point in using my labour instead of his own - there had to be an element of trust that I would to continue to work exactly as instructed and shown and not, say, switch from Everflux to LaCo half way through the job. So the difference between this situation and signing off someone else's work can, slowly and incrementally, become one of degrees.
However, as Croppie has pointed out, it seems from reading this thread that the law is pretty clear - it isn't legal to sign off someone else's work. Would I be right to assume that the reason SteveWannaDoGas is able to find this a debatable point is that a person signing off someone else's work would probably not have been pulled up on it if the work had been safe, although this does not change the law.
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newcastle phill
I think what you are saying is there is good and bad in everything ??
However the sort of supervised scenario you describe is still technically illegal but if no ones looking well there ya go youve got away with it amd your quids in.
However the sort of supervised scenario you describe is still technically illegal but if no ones looking well there ya go youve got away with it amd your quids in.
No, what I am saying is that a lot of education and regulation is about making more excuses for posh rich people to make more money and to look more puffed up and pompous.
"However the sort of supervised scenario you describe is still technically illegal but if no ones looking well there ya go youve got away with it and your quids in." Well, not really quids in, but I got some valuable work experience and helped out the guy who was giving me that experience: that was more the point. Who really believes apprentices are always going to be in the same room as the boss?
Hang on... police at the door...
"However the sort of supervised scenario you describe is still technically illegal but if no ones looking well there ya go youve got away with it and your quids in." Well, not really quids in, but I got some valuable work experience and helped out the guy who was giving me that experience: that was more the point. Who really believes apprentices are always going to be in the same room as the boss?
Hang on... police at the door...
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newcastle phill
If thats your take on education - whatever, im not gonna change your concieted view.
However gas regulations are there to protect people from themselves amd to ensure recognised safe working practices.
If you mess up with gas - you don't get many second chances.
However gas regulations are there to protect people from themselves amd to ensure recognised safe working practices.
If you mess up with gas - you don't get many second chances.
I'm not against education Phil, my point is that the system is being exploited for profit.
Nor am I against gas regulations. What I was trying to explain is why, in my opinion, Gas Safe registration is not as respected is it should be.
Nor am I against gas regulations. What I was trying to explain is why, in my opinion, Gas Safe registration is not as respected is it should be.
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tamz
Father i have a confession>
Last week i signed a boiler off that wee Drew did without me even looking at it. He brought the boiler book up to my house and i filled it in with all the right numbers and signed it at the bottom with my number on it.
Am i worried............no because Drew was the best apprentice i ever had and i know how he works. He may be selling caravans for a living these days and the last time he had a gas ticket was around 2000 but he knows more than half the idiots in this trade these days.
4 our fathers and 3 hail Marys for my sins and i don't give a fk.
The system is shyte but it is what it is
Last week i signed a boiler off that wee Drew did without me even looking at it. He brought the boiler book up to my house and i filled it in with all the right numbers and signed it at the bottom with my number on it.
Am i worried............no because Drew was the best apprentice i ever had and i know how he works. He may be selling caravans for a living these days and the last time he had a gas ticket was around 2000 but he knows more than half the idiots in this trade these days.
4 our fathers and 3 hail Marys for my sins and i don't give a fk.
The system is shyte but it is what it is
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