DIY Project To Zone My House

[Richard at Home]

Good evening and a happy new year to you all

I welcome any comments and feedback to my project I am looking at starting in 2013

now I know all this sort of thing can be done with many of the costly out of the box solutions that probably cost more than the boiler itself

What I am looking at doing is to create a heating system that has at least 3 Zones

I believe I could do this with some changes to the main Pipe work and 3 motorised zone valves and an additional time clock


Reason for project

During the day one member of my family is at home and requires heating to be on for 4 rads in part of the house.

Currently I am heating all the house all day when only part of the house needs to be heated

My daughter-in-law is also at home some times when not at Uni and may need her front room heating.

Now my logic is to have the secondary time clock switching the water flow between parts of the house during the day and in the evenings opening all valves to heat the complete house

Now I know this could also be done with the new wireless digital TVRs but this expense would be significant


I will add to this post as the project develops

If you have any questions or would like to bounce ideas or comments please reply and this may become an interesting post.


Thank you for your time

Best regards

Richard

 

[SimonG]

Welcome to the forum Richard, the only comment I can give is that in my experience it's not a diy project, it's a job for a pro. But good luck in your endeavours.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Sounds like a big upheavle gonna require a re-pipe of certain sections of the house to get the different area you want on the different zones, could get complecated for a diyer

 

[jase158]

whats the 3rd zone valve for?

 

[Richard at Home]

Well yes I guess I would class myself as a professional Diy to be honest.

There are not many tasks I have not undertaken, but I will supply pictures etc

Maybe i should change this from title from DIY we will see how it pans out.

Thanks simon

 

[Richard at Home]

Yes I am aware this may be out of the scope of your average DIY persons scope, or even what they would want to do.

I understand I will have to add in 3 main 22mm Runs that I am calling Vanes. These 3 runs will control the 3 zones with the zone valves

I am lucky as I live in a Bungalow so I have access to all the pipe work for all rooms

 

[Dotty]

Professional diy is an oxymoron. You'd best be looking at a manifold system.

 

[Richard at Home]

The 3rd valve is for scope as i may want to control another room or 2 dependant if the room is empty or in use

This is just for flexability more then anything.

 

[jase158]

I still dont get it,
1 zone for the bloke who is in.
1 zone for the usual operation
is the other zone for your daughters bedroom?

 

[SimonG]

Well yes I guess I would class myself as a professional Diy to be honest.

There are not many tasks I have not undertaken, but I will supply pictures etc

Maybe i should change this from title from DIY we will see how it pans out.

Thanks simon

Plenty of pictures and plenty of questions and then take it from there. If you get in touch with one of the mods BOD, Croppie, Gas Man, System3 or Steveb (hope I haven't missed anybody 🙂 ) they can edit the title for you.

 

[heliotrope]

Just three heating zones?

What about hot water, or that off separate boiler?

 

[SimonG]

Professional diy is an oxymoron. You'd best be looking at a manifold system.

Or the programmable TRV's, don't know a lot about it but read a little in the John Guest paperwork I read through recently.

 

[Richard at Home]

Yes the manifold may be a solution for me to investigate. I will look at some layouts and see how it will fit in with my current pipe work and if this is a better route than running 3 flow and returns in 22


Ps
I personally believe you can do a professional job as "Do it Yourself" and stand your own ground.

But not all DIY is equal ! i agree.....

 

[Howsie]

You can do a good job, not a professional job.

 

[Richard at Home]

The hot water would be unaffected as it is on the y Plan currently. MY zone project will just switch the zone valves on and off throughout the day regardless of what the boiler is doing

This will hopefully reduce the complexity of control system requirements

Hope you follow what i am saying

 

[TBServices]

This would make a good movie, probably starring Steve Martin, or someone else who can play the archetypal over confident bumbling fool.

The pitch - "Professional DIYer" rips up all of his floors, much to the displeasure of his missus who knows he's not up to the task, hilarity ensues! The guy pays a "professional professional" to rectify the situation with his bum on show, more hilarity ensues! Do you think it could get the green light?

Good luck buddy.

P.s. I imagine by vanes, you meant Veins, although you'll have to fit the zone valves to the Arteries.

 

[Richard at Home]

No problem i will settle for a Good Job to a high standard

i am happy with that

Thanks

 

[lame plumber]

The 3rd valve is for scope as i may want to control another room or 2 dependant if the room is empty or in use

This is just for flexability more then anything.

you would be better off and save money if you planned what you were doing before you start, like professionals do.

 

[Howsie]

The hot water would be unaffected as it is on the y Plan currently. MY zone project will just switch the zone valves on and off throughout the day regardless of what the boiler is doing

This will hopefully reduce the complexity of control system requirements

Hope you follow what i am saying

And there is your first mistake.

 

[jase158]

u need the boiler to fire up to give you heat? there is no need to have the zone valves open if boiler and pump aint running!

Just so you know,
went to a property the other day, someone had an extension done, they had done the plumbing "on the cheap" and I spent 3 days getting it up and running as it should be, new pump, powerflush, a day of finding pipework and the problems and finnally a day to fit magnaclean and change a couple trv's and add inhibitor.

Nearly £1,000 spent all for saving about £100 on fittings and pipework.

 

[SimonG]

Lads, lets give the guy a break.

He's come on for advice, once he has the details of what's involved then it is for him to decide on wether he believes he has the skills to complete or bring in the pro.

 

[Howsie]

Why not design your system on paper and get it ratified/validated by a pro. Best of both worlds then.

If you're good on the tools then at least you'll know what your doing will work.

 

[dancinplumba]

Why not design your system on paper and get it ratified/validated by a pro. Best of both worlds then.

If you're good on the tools then at least you'll know what your doing will work.

will he pay the pro ? or get the 'ok' off this forum ?

 

[TBServices]

Why not design your system on paper and get it ratified/validated by a pro. Best of both worlds then.

If you're good on the tools then at least you'll know what your doing will work.

Would you give free advice?

 

[Howsie]

I'm sure he would or someone on here might do it for him.

IMHO this warrants a face to face discussion as its not just about connecting pipes.

 

[Howsie]

Would you give free advice?

To a point, yes.

 

[TBServices]

To a point, yes.

In the hope when it goes to the dogs you'll be brought in to rectify? Lol

 

[Richard at Home]

I have drawn up the current layout of the Heating and Hot water system and i am going to use this as my basis for my modification for the project
I have not drawn up the proposed layout yet

But my idea is to take the 2 main 22mm flow and return pipes and add 2 more runs making a total of 3 Main Zones
Connect the desired Radiators to them and join them all up with the Zone valves to create one system full system.
Hope that makes sense

 

[Howsie]

In the hope when it goes to the dogs you'll be brought in to rectify? Lol

Lol - nope. I rarely take on jobs like this. You always uncover too much crap and people never want to pay coz its only some pipes.

No offense to OP btw.

 

[Richard at Home]

Sorry for the delay i was trying to upload the layout pictures

I do not expecting anyone to do this for me in any way it is my project and i want to do it.

Would i give free advise 100% i always do i love sharing my experiences and hopefully it helps others i have a webpage dedicated to sharing information

I have set this post up for everyone to look at like all internet information take it at face value and do your research.

Thanks everyone for your comments its all good.

Regards

Richard

 

[Howsie]

Are you in IT Richard?

 

[jase158]

whats the webpage?

 

[Richard at Home]

I would never ask someone to take on this sort of project on Professional or otherwise for me.

It is something i want to do as a project.

I moved in the house 3 years ago and the old plumbing is a mess and i want to remove it all and reinstall a new clean layout.

I will 100% guarantee that I will do this. it will work how i intend it to, and i will share all my experiences with you all good and bad and hopefully some may enjoy the read.


Thanks

Richard

 

[Howsie]

I ask coz you're handy with ppt.

 

[Richard at Home]

Into IT for work you mean

No not at work i work in engineering

 

[Richard at Home]

To be honest i can use powerpoint but this was in excel

 

[TBServices]

I would never ask someone to take on this sort of project on Professional or otherwise for me.

It is something i want to do as a project.

I moved in the house 3 years ago and the old plumbing is a mess and i want to remove it all and reinstall a new clean layout.

I will 100% guarantee that I will do this. it will work how i intend it to, and i will share all my experiences with you all good and bad and hopefully some may enjoy the read.


Thanks

Richard

In that case, starting from fresh, don't make the same mistakes again. Use the right tools and materials for the job. And while you're at it, take out the y plan valve on your cylinder and fit 4 2 port valves.

 

[TBServices]

Into IT for work you mean

No not at work i work in engineering

What a shocker lol. Sick of hearing this.

No offence OP.

 

[Howsie]

I have drawn up the current layout of the Heating and Hot water system and i am going to use this as my basis for my modification for the project
I have not drawn up the proposed layout yet

But my idea is to take the 2 main 22mm flow and return pipes and add 2 more runs making a total of 3 Main Zones
Connect the desired Radiators to them and join them all up with the Zone valves to create one system full system.
Hope that makes sense

Can't really read the detail on my phone. Why not junk the pumps and the CWST and install an unvented tank?

 

[Richard at Home]

if you are talking about a Combi system the mains water pressure on my property is very poor and insufficient for the size

I am running a valiant 438 eco tec System boiler

 

[SimonG]

I will 100% guarantee that I will do this. it will work how i intend it to

Sorry Richard but that's a recipe for disaster, it's entirely the wrong attitude. Everybody has limitations, it's knowing them that's the key and keeping you out of trouble.

Good luck, I'm out.

 

[jase158]

I know nothing of zone valves but just had a think about it and I would get the pack for my first time and some advice from plumbers I know to get me going (best advice IMHO)

However it sound like you are going to do it your way anyay and ignore the best advice so stick 3 x 2 port valves in, get 2 time switches (one zone would be on your hot water button) and go on electrician forum and find out how to wire it all in.
only thing I would be worried about is the wiring to the boiler and pump as you dont want to send too much power to the Boiler and blow the fuse/circuit board every 2 seconds.

best case = everything works well, no garuntee though so will have to change components at own cost
worse case = new circuit board, everything ripped out and done again so twice the cost.

What I would be interested in is, would it make any difference costwise. if your boiler is working all day heating 4 rooms, How much money will you actually save rather then heating the whole house?

 

[jase158]

oh and the cost of zone valve kit vs your homemade diy project!!

 

[MrMeek]

All I have to say is Im going to spend the night on excel to make layouts like that :O

 

[TBServices]

You'll need 4 2 port valves, a 4 channel programmer or 2x2 programmers, and you'll also need a new room stat in each zone. You'll have to replace valves in room stat locations.

Tip, if you're an engineer, you should be able to afford a professional. This will only end in tears and as already said, you have the wrong attitude. It's also the wrong time of year to be leaving your family without heat and HW for a prolonged period, which it will be, it will take you a very very very long time to complete this "project". I'd advise you focused your extra energy on something else, like a classic car or bike lol

 

[Richard at Home]

Well there are 19 radiators so heating 4 not 19 is a significant load in my mind

I think there is a little misunderstanding about how i am planning to control the zone valves

This will just be a Power to a separate time clock ( Not connected to the boiler in any way )

This time clock will just turn the zone valves on and off throughout the day regardless of the running of the boiler

The boiler is always on and comes on via the stat and if the room stat drops the boiler fires up

as an example If it was in the morning the boiler would only be pushing water around the 4 rads ( Controlled separately by the other time clock that will only control the zone valves )

If the boiler comes on a 5 in the evening all the zone valves would be open and all 19 rads would be heated


The hot water would just work in the same way

The boiler will be heating the hot water through the STD Valiant time clock or it would be heating rads through the STD Vailant time clock

if the vailant time clock its on heating the only difference is that the stand alown time clock will change how many rads the boiler it heating

This is just my idea of how it will work

I hope i have explained it

Thanks Richard

Please don’t think i am ignoring any advise that is passed on. this is not the case, i will do the project because i believe i can make it work as i want it to and will save me money for heating.

If not I will put it back to its current state

PS i only started the idea last week and have drawn up the current system to work with.

Thanks

Richard

 

[AlexGas]

I have drawn up the current layout of the Heating and Hot water system and i am going to use this as my basis for my modification for the project

You got your vent pipe WRONG!!!

 

[TBServices]

You CLEARLY have no clue how these things work (see your previous post). To continue beyond this point would be idiotic.

 

[Howsie]

Well you're not really zoning the system, more shutting parts down based on a time only basis.

It'll work the way you've outlined it above but it's not right.

What's your household insurance policy like?

 

[AlexGas]

It's a FAIL!

 

[TBServices]

It won't work. I'm not telling you why, but it won't work.

 

[Howsie]

He's not altering the vent pipe though.

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks for your feedback

I am not going to pull it apart just yet and i will install all the new pipe work prior to disconnecting the current layout

I do think a lot of people do not follow how i am going to set this up though

please read my last post.

I do not want to use extra room stats and boiler feedback etc

my new system will just either heat the 4 rads or 8 rads or all 19 depending on the zone valves that are controlled totally separately by a stand alone time clock

all my zone valves will do is change the size of the heating circuit that is available to the current heating system setup.

Thanks

Richard

 

[TBServices]

Thanks for your feedback

I am not going to pull it apart just yet and i will install all the new pipe work prior to disconnecting the current layout

I do think a lot of people do not follow how i am going to set this up though

please read my last post.

I do not want to use extra room stats and boiler feedback etc

my new system will just either heat the 4 rads or 8 rads or all 19 depending on the zone valves that are controlled totally separately by a stand alone time clock

all my zone valves will do is change the size of the heating circuit that is available to the current heating system setup.

Thanks

Richard

No one here has trouble comprehending your "plan". Rather its you who can't understand why it's WRONG.

 

[Richard at Home]

May i ask what is incorrect with the vent pipe as it works fine.

 

[Richard at Home]

The only significant issue I am aware of is the power rating of the boiler in relation to the number of rads i am heating may cause me to trigger pump overrun error due to the speed the water heats up.

I am sure there are other issues i will encounter.

Thanks

Richard

 

[Dotty]

The only significant issue I am aware of is the power rating of the boiler in relation to the number of rads i am heating may cause me to trigger pump overrun error due to the speed the water heats up.

I am sure there are other issues i will encounter.

Thanks

Richard

You can bet on it.

Red Adair's quote springs to mind.

 

[SimonG]

'If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.' Red Adair

 

[Richard at Home]

I have seen both in action

At least when a ameture does a bad job you can justify it

When you see a profetional make a mess it is embarrising

 

[AlexGas]

That's not real!

 

[AlexGas]

It's a wind up!!!

 

[Richard at Home]

Off topic a little


Took my 2009 VW Golf DTI 140 into Tamworth Volkswagen on 28/12/2012 for a new cam belt and water pump replacement

Could i have done it myself?

Yes

Do i have the tools or the workshop to do it in

No


Did i have to refit the Cam Belt Cover on the car after i received the car back

Yes !

I presumed this was a professional at work. Maybe Not !

 

[lame plumber]

Off topic a little


Took my 2009 VW Golf DTI 140 into Tamworth Volkswagen on 28/12/2012 for a new cam belt and water pump replacement

Could i have done it myself?

Yes

Do i have the tools or the workshop to do it in

No


Did i have to refit the Cam Belt Cover on the car after i received the car back

Yes !

I presumed this was a professional at work. Maybe Not !

I expect they didnt want to be at work on the 28-12-12, I didnt either,

 

[Richard at Home]

what is not real ?

 

[TBServices]

The moral of that story is not to do it yourself, but to use a trusted professional. VW could have used any one of their numerous engineers and apprentices to do that job. Should have gone to an independant vw mechanic, there's plenty around and it's easy to find a recommended fitter, with a bit of research.

 

[Richard at Home]

Oh so the quality you receive from a professional or a DIY person totally depends on the date ....

Sorry my mistake

I am sure the price was the same

I am looking forward to seeing VW reply on the subject when they reply

 

[Richard at Home]

Ok my mistake again ...

 

[Richard at Home]

Well thank you all for your time i have enjoyed the topic
This project is not a wind up !

In fear of upsetting anyone, which by the way was never my intention it was just to share my project

I will update the post again and let you know how i am getting on

If what i do is crap and does not work i will be totally honest and advise my experience accordingly

Whatever happens i will 100% guarantee it will be better then what heating and hot water system that was installed when i moved in

I remember the hot water tank was a horizontal type in the loft about 20 years old ! that was the first thing that went.

Best Regards

Richard

 

[Rickster123]

Best of luck Richard. Please do keep us updated. :mickey:

 

[Richard at Home]

No problems I will keep you up to date.

Even if i get i told you so comments, I do not mind

Regards

Richard

 

[Dannypipe]

What are the odds on us never hearing from Richard again?

 

[Howsie]

I'm sure he'll be back to say its working fine.

I'm off to finish the suspension bridge at the bottom of my garden.

 

[TBServices]

Yeah, I better get back to building my oil well project too, otherwise the missus is gonna be peeved.

 

[Richard at Home]

I will be back as i am a man of my word

I will not go into detail about the slightly more complex project of integrating the heating system into my home network using our Linux server to monitor the boiler stats through the Valiant proprietary EBUS communication system then

I will save that for another post !

See you all soon

Regards

Richard

 

[dancinplumba]

I will be back as i am a man of my word

I will not go into detail about the slightly more complex project of integrating the heating system into my home network using our Linux server to monitor the boiler stats through the Valiant proprietary EBUS communication system then

I will save that for another post !

See you all soon

Regards

Richard

thats the easy bit

 

[TBServices]

Hahahaha. This thread just gets better. Should be a easy job for someone of your calibre Richard.

 

[Howsie]

Why in my leaking taps would you want to do that?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

over complicating it for the sake of doing it imho

 

[Howsie]

Putting people lives at risk unnecessarily by the sound of it.

 

[TBServices]

I don't even see how monitoring the boiler stat would be at all beneficial.

In this case the only thing it will tell you is that you've piped and wired your system up wrong and are producing excessive amounts of heat.

 

[AWheating]

the boiler will require interlock for all zones, to work correctly, meet the building regulations and be efficient. Also dont forget your auto bypass if you didnt plan for one.

good luck and please keep in mind that any work on the boiler that breaks into the combustion chain will need a competent person, this is likey to include the removal of its case.

It may be an idea to involve a Heating Engineer for advise but you seem confident you can get it done. Let us know how it works out.

 

[R1CKY]

I think some of you are being a bit harsh on the OP!

Good luck OP, but I'd seriously think about each zone having a stat and timer, if you are going to go through all of this cost and effort, it'd make sense to have time AND temperature control on the zones.

 

[Howsie]

Well it was said many times but the advice ignored.

 

[smhstu]

Why not just turn the rads off that you don't want to heat with the valves on the rads, then turn them back on?

 

[Howsie]

Doesn't involve unnecessary fiddling and the EBUS.

🙂

 

[SimonG]

Why not just turn the rads off that you don't want to heat with the valves on the rads, then turn them back on?

Too simple, even tho effective. 🙂

 

[Dannyparty92]

Well this is the best Wednesday night iv had in a long time! This thread and Tyrone fiddling with boilers on coronation street! What a night!

 

[Richard at Home]

Hi all hope you all keeping well.

 

[AWheating]

Well this is the best Wednesday night iv had in a long time! This thread and Tyrone fiddling with boilers on coronation street! What a night!

fiddlling with boilers, hes not been sleeping with that fiz again?? 🙂

 

[Richard at Home]

Turning the rads off and on manually is ok if your at home but when you have 19 its a bit of a pain

 

[dancinplumba]

fiddlling with boilers, hes not been sleeping with that fiz again?? 🙂

is she not dead ? thats necrophillia isnt it ?

 

[dancinplumba]

Hi all hope you all keeping well.

welcome along 🙂

 

[Howsie]

Turning the rads off and on manually is ok if your at home but when you have 19 its a bit of a pain

Can't you hire someone?

 

[Dannyparty92]

No not dead but she could of died due to unqualified soap actors fiddling with the flue. So don't ever attempt any gasworks please please get a gas safe engineer in! 🙂.

 

[Dannyparty92]

Richard you seem like a smart bloke can't you design and build a Robot to go turn TRVs off at allocated times programmed into the robots inbuilt time clock?

 

[Dotty]

And do not. Under any circumstances. Any at all. Attempt to connect into your boiler to remotely control the boiler temp. This is your last line of defence before the limit stat.

Professional BEMS companies know this is not to be tampered with. Take the hint.

 

[dancinplumba]

Richard you seem like a smart bloke can't you design and build a Robot to go turn TRVs off at allocated times programmed into the robots inbuilt time clock?

wheres robert gone ?

 

[Richard at Home]

well i could install Programmable Thermostatic Radiator Valve Digital TRV on all the rads as these can all be programmed by day to switch each rad on and off each day

But i think this would have a number of disadvantages

1 it will deliver exactly the same result as my project but done at each radiator
2. you have to buy them all
3 set them all
4 change the batterys ever 6 to 12 months

My project will do exactly the same but will use 2 to 3 motor valves to isolate a bank of specific radiators

No batterys or programming loads of TVRs

Had a look at the pipe work tonight and i believe i will need about 50M of 22mm plastic speed fit barrier pipe about £90

 

[Howsie]

And a mouse 🙂

 

[Richard at Home]

We have no plan to control any aspects of the Boiler

This is done with the Valiant time clock and VR65 Control Unit

Thanks

Richard