R
Renewable M
yes but you cannot have the neutraliser as the highest point in the gravity circuit. heat rises. it doesnt then 'fall' and you CANNOT PUMP IT BECAUSE IT CONTRAVENES BUILDING REGS.
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
yes but you cannot have the neutraliser as the highest point in the gravity circuit. heat rises. it doesnt then 'fall' and you CANNOT PUMP IT BECAUSE IT CONTRAVENES BUILDING REGS.
Hi Buffy,
14 Kw stove has a lot of heating power in fact some rated at 14 can go to 20 Kw depending on the fuel and how the customer uses the air intake but that's for another day.
The first problem I see is the stove circuit will be "tipping" into the F&E tank because the hot water (flow) will take the line of least resistance.
What may work is an accumulator tank in the attic (similar to a buffer) that could in theory store the heat to be dissipated by a pump to the existing heating system, the header tank is still needed for safety.
You are asking a pressurised system (that is zoned ?) to work as an open vent system, the fact that all the pipe work drops down from the attic means it was designed to be pumped.
The main safety the present system has is no heat can be generated in the event of a power cut, you do not have that luxury with a solid fuel stove.
Most of the older houses started out with old style solid fuel systems, bungalows often had the flow and return running through the middle of the house under the floor in 3/4" with the rads taken off in 1/2" the cylinder would have been beside the stove, cooker / back boiler with short runs in 1" copper.
The advantage in an emergency was the flow would circulate through the cylinder losing heat and even if the cylinder did get very hot it would expand off into the storage tank being replaced by cold so between the cylinder and the F&E tank exploding back boilers were avoided.
Reading your description you want the flow to travel up about 2m (no problem), horizontal 5m and drop approx 1.5 > 2m to the cylinder with the F&E tank somewhere along the way ?
I know that some stove manufacturers used to have a max of 15 feet from the stove / back boiler to the cylinder and if you can find an installer manual on line you will see the cylinder is usually over the the stove with the primary flow and return in 1" copper pipe.
You might get some help with designing the system from System Link I can assure you that without a definite plan in place I would not start working on that job in the morning.
Renewable M and others have given you some very good advice, I suggest that you take the day to find an alternative instead of digging a hole for yourself.
14 Kw stove has a lot of heating power in fact some rated at 14 can go to 20 Kw depending on the fuel and how the customer uses the air intake but that's for another day.
The first problem I see is the stove circuit will be "tipping" into the F&E tank because the hot water (flow) will take the line of least resistance.
What may work is an accumulator tank in the attic (similar to a buffer) that could in theory store the heat to be dissipated by a pump to the existing heating system, the header tank is still needed for safety.
You are asking a pressurised system (that is zoned ?) to work as an open vent system, the fact that all the pipe work drops down from the attic means it was designed to be pumped.
The main safety the present system has is no heat can be generated in the event of a power cut, you do not have that luxury with a solid fuel stove.
Most of the older houses started out with old style solid fuel systems, bungalows often had the flow and return running through the middle of the house under the floor in 3/4" with the rads taken off in 1/2" the cylinder would have been beside the stove, cooker / back boiler with short runs in 1" copper.
The advantage in an emergency was the flow would circulate through the cylinder losing heat and even if the cylinder did get very hot it would expand off into the storage tank being replaced by cold so between the cylinder and the F&E tank exploding back boilers were avoided.
Reading your description you want the flow to travel up about 2m (no problem), horizontal 5m and drop approx 1.5 > 2m to the cylinder with the F&E tank somewhere along the way ?
I know that some stove manufacturers used to have a max of 15 feet from the stove / back boiler to the cylinder and if you can find an installer manual on line you will see the cylinder is usually over the the stove with the primary flow and return in 1" copper pipe.
You might get some help with designing the system from System Link I can assure you that without a definite plan in place I would not start working on that job in the morning.
Renewable M and others have given you some very good advice, I suggest that you take the day to find an alternative instead of digging a hole for yourself.
B
buffy27
peteheat ..thanks a million.....i am finding it difficult to under stand how the stove can blowup !!!one guy said that the pressure build up will cause this and i mentioned installing a 3 bar blow off and no obstruction between stove and f& e .. some guys gave it real smart to me..which was of no benefit what so ever ,only satisfying there own ego[look at this guy ,,ha ha ,creating bombs ,,ha ha cowboy!!!] i have met a person who seem s to know it all and the rest are playing catch up to his advanced knowledge and thinking ,oh that is a terrible mind set to have !!!
just like to make reference to this post on the basis of its negative ,very unhelpful tone. i have been on this forum a good length of time and have yet to come across this type of smart /know all persona.this guy has not given me a factual answer to the question i pose .just looked down on my lesser intelligence🙄.. the reason i posted on here was to find out information on a specific installation that has popped up..now remember the fact that i have not installed anything ,,nothing ,,and COWBOYS don t go researching pre-installation...the job is off for the moment . why, because obviously i am not comfortable with my plan of action... any more factual information would be very much appreciated !!! thanks for all the helpful replies non -the less,regards ,a young plumber willing to learn always ..
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Hi Buffy,
I am not going to answer for Renewable M I have no doubt he well capable of that himself.
Do not be surprised if you see similar replies from me on occasion, this is an open forum not a training academy or a private chat between the apprentice and his foreman.
I accept you are trying your best but sometimes the best way to learn is to read the building regs (as suggested) the man suggests you look up gravity heat dump again I have no problem with that reply because the reader will learn.
It can be very difficult to condense a lifetime of learning into a short post, also take care to remember Joe Public may read one of the posts and thinks he knows enough to undertake that task himself although it is missing a lot of what we see as simple details not worth mentioning and he could blow himself up !
Also worth noting there are a lot of Guys who visit this site who have never had to work with Solid Fuel, the UK has had an excellent natural gas supply for a very long time.
I bet there are tips and tricks many of them know that I certainly have not seen because I operate in an area that until recently was well outside our natural gas network.
I would not expect them to share such information on an open forum with a total stranger maybe you would do well to read between the lines sometimes 😉
All the best.
I am not going to answer for Renewable M I have no doubt he well capable of that himself.
Do not be surprised if you see similar replies from me on occasion, this is an open forum not a training academy or a private chat between the apprentice and his foreman.
I accept you are trying your best but sometimes the best way to learn is to read the building regs (as suggested) the man suggests you look up gravity heat dump again I have no problem with that reply because the reader will learn.
It can be very difficult to condense a lifetime of learning into a short post, also take care to remember Joe Public may read one of the posts and thinks he knows enough to undertake that task himself although it is missing a lot of what we see as simple details not worth mentioning and he could blow himself up !
Also worth noting there are a lot of Guys who visit this site who have never had to work with Solid Fuel, the UK has had an excellent natural gas supply for a very long time.
I bet there are tips and tricks many of them know that I certainly have not seen because I operate in an area that until recently was well outside our natural gas network.
I would not expect them to share such information on an open forum with a total stranger maybe you would do well to read between the lines sometimes 😉
All the best.
condensing whats been said it looks like the cylider is going to have to be above the solid fuel to allow it to act as a heat dump can the oil boier do gravity as well?is so use gravity to cylinder from both and join heating f and r through one pump
B
Bernie2
Hi! Buffy
Sorry for slow reply, could not work out what was going on. In the basics a free unobstructed vent with a good cold feed path seem to cover safety, it may be worth adding a blow off valve on the boiler, you never know the vent and cold feed could freeze.
The waste heat is a problem but I feel sure you know that anyway. Up and over systems are terrible for trapping air but you seem to have worked that out as well.
Sorry for slow reply, could not work out what was going on. In the basics a free unobstructed vent with a good cold feed path seem to cover safety, it may be worth adding a blow off valve on the boiler, you never know the vent and cold feed could freeze.
The waste heat is a problem but I feel sure you know that anyway. Up and over systems are terrible for trapping air but you seem to have worked that out as well.
Hi. There are a number of issues here,
1. Pumped primaries on solid fuel should not be used. On a cold windy day when the stove is working at max, is the time power failure is most likely to happen. The stove will almost bounce around the room and the noise omitted will frighten the life out of you. 14 kw is a lot of energy, along with the noise etc the roof space will be converting the steam back to water, staining ceiling etc. (pipes in loft frozen is another story?
2. Using a drop system on primaries to cylinder will result in parasitic circulation of hot water up the primary flow into the roof space, when the stove system is not in use. Resulting in the waste of stored water heat/energy waste.
3. When gravity primaries were used extensively, and over heating occurred. The fire could be shoveled out and the hot taps through out the house turned on to introduce cold water into the cylinder to find the heat produced something to do with it self.
4. Why not just heat the room with the stove? Its a safe option. Good Luck
1. Pumped primaries on solid fuel should not be used. On a cold windy day when the stove is working at max, is the time power failure is most likely to happen. The stove will almost bounce around the room and the noise omitted will frighten the life out of you. 14 kw is a lot of energy, along with the noise etc the roof space will be converting the steam back to water, staining ceiling etc. (pipes in loft frozen is another story?
2. Using a drop system on primaries to cylinder will result in parasitic circulation of hot water up the primary flow into the roof space, when the stove system is not in use. Resulting in the waste of stored water heat/energy waste.
3. When gravity primaries were used extensively, and over heating occurred. The fire could be shoveled out and the hot taps through out the house turned on to introduce cold water into the cylinder to find the heat produced something to do with it self.
4. Why not just heat the room with the stove? Its a safe option. Good Luck
R
Renewable M
Sorry if you didnt like the tone of my previous answer, but crumbs, what you are trying to do, as many people have explained, is not in any way good. It's got nothing to do with my ego. I didn't create the laws of physics or building regs. Honestly!
Some of the guys have spelt out some very, very basic principles that any heating engineer should know, like the basics of thermodynamics, that's all. Heat is heat, whether produced by gas, oil, wood, heat pumps. The biggest issue with a stove is the lack of control. Thats why you need to follow the regs to the letter. They are there to prevent disasters and you dont want your phone ringing with an unhappy customer each time the stove gets hot and there is nowhere for the heat to go.
The f&e tank is not an acceptable repository for the surplus energy either.
What you are trying to do is quite frankly, well dodgy.
Anyway, hope it goes well.
Some of the guys have spelt out some very, very basic principles that any heating engineer should know, like the basics of thermodynamics, that's all. Heat is heat, whether produced by gas, oil, wood, heat pumps. The biggest issue with a stove is the lack of control. Thats why you need to follow the regs to the letter. They are there to prevent disasters and you dont want your phone ringing with an unhappy customer each time the stove gets hot and there is nowhere for the heat to go.
The f&e tank is not an acceptable repository for the surplus energy either.
What you are trying to do is quite frankly, well dodgy.
Anyway, hope it goes well.
B
Bernie2
Yes it probably will be a nightmare system. I wouldn't do it. And yes it probably will vent into the f and e and possibly bounce around.
But if there are no alternatives?
Could always put the pump on a by pass circuite and retain primaries integrity, using the pump as an aid to circulation rather than the prime circulator perhaps.
Its all very dodgy.
But if there are no alternatives?
Could always put the pump on a by pass circuite and retain primaries integrity, using the pump as an aid to circulation rather than the prime circulator perhaps.
Its all very dodgy.
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B
buffy27
thanks guys .. listen renew m i do understand pretty much every thing u said to me ..my problem was the tone u took with me ..read back now in hindsight ..u were a bit ott in your approach...now as i have said i have done nothing yet and am still unsure..i rang a plumber who told me he has a stove in his house which is up and down ..too much hassle to cut floor he said...he put 3 bar blow off on boiler which is piped to outside..he vented from 1' to 3/4' while rising and then had 2 air vents just for commissioning.. he said it works grand...now he said its not to the book but its safe !!!
if u have a situation where the coil on cylinder is below the level of the stove.general rule of thumb is 18 ' between flow hight in stove to coil inlet.any one come across this even !!
if u have a situation where the coil on cylinder is below the level of the stove.general rule of thumb is 18 ' between flow hight in stove to coil inlet.any one come across this even !!
M
migoplumber
i'm one of them who still thinks it can be done. closed loop circuit up over and down, when the flow gets hot, yes convection will send the hot up the flow pipe. but it dosn't stop there. stove constantly heating water. flow carry's on getting hot and rising. as pointed out before basic physics. but in closed circuit, nobody remebered to point out flow in one direction will create a flow in the other! the forced flow through convection will also force the water down the return pipe, and back into the stove - making the closed circuit circulate.
the system can work - easily.
and i also agree it could also go very pair shaped, but dont question the physics involved!
buffy has my blessing right or wrong!
the system can work - easily.
and i also agree it could also go very pair shaped, but dont question the physics involved!
buffy has my blessing right or wrong!
B
buffy27
cheers ..like. ye must know by now that i have some bit of a decent head for this plumbing lark..been on here a good while now. lads this really is a kinda dark area in plumbing .i just wanted to bounce idea s around...now,i understand there must be a cut off point regarding regulations etc and i am not challenging them. but i cannot see how a bomb can be formed..open vent ..feed adding cold water down return and a 3 bar blow off on top of stove..there will be a natural convectional circuit if the pump fails,from the expansion back down through the feed on return!!the f & e would be well supported all around with the expansion dropped into a hole in the cover of the tank.../not plastic.. any input appreciated ..cheers
M
migoplumber
buff, just could i think it can be done, dosnt mean it should!! there are lots of points (most of which have been covered here) which if not followed through could lead an explosive combination. i think the point earlier raised about pressure and temps is concerning. as i recall over pressurize steam vapour returning to water increases in volume by about 1100 times. thats a big bomb. just be carefull, research it for another week or so before you go back to site.
B
buffy27
what if a larger stainless f& e tank was used ..wouldn t this help as a heat dump in this extreme overheating cases..
M
migoplumber
nope, cant use an f+e tank for heat dumping!!
i read that posted website sucking up info willy nilly, was dead good. do the same
i read that posted website sucking up info willy nilly, was dead good. do the same
Hi To achieve gravity circulation the parameters are very tight. The cylinder needs to be as near as vertical above the boiler as possible an as high as possible. Long horizontal runs and the friction they provide, will slow circulation to a stop. What makes the water move is the circulating head, which is measured in parts of an inch. Developed by the weight difference between water in say 12" length of the flow and return pipe. The weight difference being the amount of water displaced with a temp difference of say 20 degrees is minimal. I would also challenge whether the coil/heat exchanger within the cylinder is capable of converting 14 kw per hour through this apparatus?
Hi,
I would really love to be able to say this will work safely because I sell stoves !
There are stoves designed to work as part of a pressurised system, I have not come across one made by a UK manufacturer yet and I seriously doubt any of the Chinese models (including Stanley, Mulberry etc) have caught up with the design.
Please do not try to take elements of both open and pressurised systems to try to make the system work.
A 3 bar safety will be a total pain (constant call backs) because it will most likely be either blowing off or definitely weeping on a regular basis.
Forget what your plumber told you about his system he was not working for a consumer likely to panic when the pipes start banging.
The cylinder will use about 4 > 6 Kw of the heat when it is cold, as it heats up the return will get hotter, if the stove can produce 14 Kw you would need a heat dump (buffer) with a capacity of approx 700 litres.
I would really love to be able to say this will work safely because I sell stoves !
There are stoves designed to work as part of a pressurised system, I have not come across one made by a UK manufacturer yet and I seriously doubt any of the Chinese models (including Stanley, Mulberry etc) have caught up with the design.
Please do not try to take elements of both open and pressurised systems to try to make the system work.
A 3 bar safety will be a total pain (constant call backs) because it will most likely be either blowing off or definitely weeping on a regular basis.
Forget what your plumber told you about his system he was not working for a consumer likely to panic when the pipes start banging.
The cylinder will use about 4 > 6 Kw of the heat when it is cold, as it heats up the return will get hotter, if the stove can produce 14 Kw you would need a heat dump (buffer) with a capacity of approx 700 litres.
B
buffy27
Hi buffy,
Not neccesarily like most large cylinders buffers, thermal stores, accumulators can all be plumbed to suit the heating appliance.
Coils can be fitted to add or take out the heat, some are used as pre-heat cyinders.
In all cases the standard multi fuel stove should have the old fashioned header F&E tank for safety.
Not neccesarily like most large cylinders buffers, thermal stores, accumulators can all be plumbed to suit the heating appliance.
Coils can be fitted to add or take out the heat, some are used as pre-heat cyinders.
In all cases the standard multi fuel stove should have the old fashioned header F&E tank for safety.
R
Renewable M
Hey pete, when you say the f&e for safety you mean the open vented aspect rather than a heat dump I'm sure.
p.s. what stoves do you sell. are you a shop? pm me if you like
p.s. what stoves do you sell. are you a shop? pm me if you like
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