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Flue dripping from exhaust and from air intake.

Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws

Y

Yashimaki

My neighbours flue is installed on my property & is dripping condensate from both the exhaust and air intake whenever boiler operating. The exhaust has kit fitted and is one metre above air intake so the drips are from different locations but both check out as acidic (i.e. products of combustion). It seems to be a loss of integrity of a seal between air intake and exhaust. Can anyone tell me is this an ID or AR fault and can a registered engineer put an unsafe notice on it.
 
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condensate dripping from air intake.jpgcondensate dripping fromj flue exhaust.jpg
 
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Why was flue put in over your property. We need a few pics of the flue but from further away to show position. As probably breaches building regs if over your property.
 
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tell your neighbour to get someone to check it out its most likely not installed correctly if its dripping from the tip. Take pictures and upload them. It could also be that the washers have been formed from being in one position for so long and someone may have moved it recently
 
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Rckape said:
As others have said, not AR or ID.

It might not comply with MI's but it's a matter for building control to check out.
Click to expand...

Bit late to involve labc IMHO. This is why I'm trying to drag the info out the op.

If he's given the neighbours the ok for the flue to go where it is, labc involvement or not, he's stymied.

SimonG said:
Fallen out with the neighbour have we?
Click to expand...

Thought never crossed my mind either, especially given the response I got earlier. I'll allow him a wee back pedal.
 
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OP is too well-informed and detailed to be an innocent query. I suspect there's far more to this than we're being told... I can't help feeling that a notice has already been issued that the OP is hoping to undermine...
 
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I can assure I am being up front. Just trying be short and to the point. I am not an expert although I have tried to do my homework before bothering you guys. The Flue was installed without permission. I rent this property and landlord gave permission for flue to remain despite complaints from day one of it dripping condensate and blowing fumes into my bedroom window. It is at the level of the window and 1 metre in front of it. The landlord cannot permit trespass as that right passes to me as their secure tenant. So the flue can't be serviced or inspected without my permission. As there is condensate dripping from air intake I was wondering if this constituted a potential leak between air intake and exhaust gases and if this made it either ID or AR. If so it can't continue to operate and as they have no lawful right to access it for repair/maintenance they will have to stick it on their own property and let me open my bedroom window when I like. I appreciate you taking time and trouble to comment. Thanks guys.
 
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Ok, as said it's neither AR or ID, the fall is wrong is all. The flue is doing what it should.

However, if the landlord gave permission for it to remain then there's nothing you can do.

I should be wary of restricting access. If your landlord has granted permission it may put you in contravention of the small print of your letting agreement. But then the gsr would just note access not possible, he only needs to visually inspect it anyway and he could do this by hanging out a window, should there be a suitable one.

I can see where you're coming from but you're going about the issue the wrong way and portraying yourself in a bad light.
 
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Why not get in touch with your landlord and ask him to contact your neighbour. As you are finding it a nuisance, he could ask if a plume kit could he fitted to divert the flue gasses away from the property you reside in.
 
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I will add some more pics later and appreciate your comments.
I most certainly bow to your superior knowledge.
Thanks Guys
 
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It is possible to retro fit an adaptor to the end of >some < flues that deflects and directs the plume away.
You may wish to suggest that to the neighbour.
Whatever you do. Do not interfere with, alter or adapt that flue. If you do you could wind up in court or worse as your unqualified and would be seen as malicious.
Can you add a picture from further away to show both properties - your window vs flue from the side angle if your with me..

Regarding access you will be trying to hold back the tide trying to stop that and again without just cause and acting in spite you will end up with court costs against you should he pursue access legally.

You may wish to look at
Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992

Again if you act like an unreasonable a$$ and can show no loss or incurred expense as a result of necessary access then if it goes that way (to court for access) everyones had a great day out and you pick up the tab - as no court would prevent access on the grounds of maintenance for safety.

People just need to get along to make life easy - its too short to be bothered with crap like this imho
 
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Looks like it already has a plume management kit installed, have you spoken to the owner of the property involved reasonably? Without seeing a the flue installation i can't really tell if a longer plume kit or just a slight adjustment of the elbow away from your window would solve this?
 
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Hi Newcastle Phill. Thanks for taking the time and trouble it is very much appreciated. The same goes for all the others. It's my first go on a site like this and I am blown away with all the amazing replies.
I appreciate your warning Phill but can assure you I never have and never will interfere with the flue but good advice to anyone in a similar position who may be on a short fuse.
The Landlord is unwilling to help out in any way. They permitted a flue to trespass on my property against my wishes which is in breach of our signed secure tenancy agreement and Housing Act 1998. They are required by these to inform me & must have my consent before making any changes which may affect me. Also the installation does not meet GSR 28 "No person shall install a gas appliance except in such a manner that it is readily accessible for operation, inspection and maintenance" . Getting a court order certainly does not sound like readily accessible or does the need to let them in my front door and through my home into my garden. They could abseil into my garden but not sure this is part of GSR engineers job description ; D.
Access Neighbouring Land Act 2a is applicable here as flue could be easily located on the dominant land. 2b applies as putting a flue on the servient land make it substantially more difficult to carry out essential works. This amounts to Delict (checkout wiki for Delict). They could not make any successful application for an ANL order even if the court ignored the Housing act, tenancy agreement and tenancy laws because 2a & 2b cannot be satisfied. Very good point though Phill.
I was hoping for an easy fix by it being an ID or AR but the consensus seems to reject this.
Regarding lets all get along. That's a 2 way street. Why would the neighbour put a flue outside my bedroom window and then expect me to allow them to enter my home to maintain it? That sounds like being forced to let someone's dog **** in your house and then give them the right to come in when they like to clean it up.
The deflection kit is pointed away from my window but it is at the same height & about I metre in front of it. The flue exhausts into free air i.e. not against a wall so can be blown in any direction. As you probably know plumes can hang around and when a nearby window is open it as a bit like pulling a plug out and the water being sucked down a plughole. I am asthmatic and can't take the risk of long term exposure to products of combustion especially while sleeping. I just keep my bedroom window locked shut and use an extractor fan on the window with an air filtration system fitted where bedroom door transom window used to be. Altering the deflection kit might be a problem. I'll upload some pics to give you a better idea.
You may know about Landlord's annual gas safety checks. I was wondering if that would apply to a third party installations they permitted to be on their tenants property. It would seem proper in this case for the landlord to be obliged to ensure it's safe operation and issue an annual gas safety certificate exactly as they are obliged by law (GSR 36) for any gas installations they own as they essentially are the same thing.
Incidentally the Flue is in breach of Doc j (distance from boundary and roof opening). Funny but if my bedroom window was a roof opening that would also breach Doc J.
The flue is located close to my flue so wonder if that is an issue? (I'll upload some pics)
Sorry for the long post but believe me I am trying to keep it brief without omitting relevant info.
Thanks Again.
 
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I may be missing the point on the situation but is your flue not doing exactly the same thing then. I'm not trying to be inflammatory or to wind people up but this is just all sounds a bit weird. I think you have three options
1. Put up with it
2. If you believe your landlord to be in breach of contract then make this your point and leave
3. Get an independent gas safe engineer in to see if there are any gas safety breaches
 
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Don't play with that flue. The exhaust elbow has been moved to point at the window to make the situation look worse than it is. In one pic it's pointing to the side in another it's pointing right. DO not touch the flue.
 
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APPlumbing said:
Don't play with that flue. The exhaust elbow has been moved to point at the window to make the situation look worse than it is. In one pic it's pointing to the side in another it's pointing right. DO not touch the flue.
Click to expand...

I noticed that. No gsr in their right mind would point the plume kit in either other them directions. It's clearly been tampered with.
 
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easy enough to fix get a gsr to bring it down to the same level as your flue with the owners permission of course who ever fitted it has done what he would assume to be the right thing by raising it above the parapet to minimize nuisance without knowing the distances involved he may be inside the area he is allowed regarding the velux windows which would also be cured by lowering it
 
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Wow. Must operate like a submarine periscope and turn around by itself - especially as the neighbour doesnt have access.

That is a 1st....
 
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Reopened on basis of pm.

Yashimaki said:
Hi croppie.
I've just got in to find you've closed the thread.
It seems the flue being "tampered with" has beeen put down to me, This is not true. In fact it was the neighbours efforts to deal with the complaint.
The neighbours originally had it pointing at right angles to the wall dischsarging over mide garden. I complained. They then pointed it at 45 degrees away from the window but still discharging over my garden. I complained. They then pointed it over their property. I complained agasin as it still came in the window. Since then have moved it at least once probably because of their roof opening. I would appreciate if you would open the thread again so that people can know the truth.
Click to expand...

This is going to be one of the few times!
 
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I am struggling to understand why there appears to be a reluctance to getting a gas safe engineer in on this. Nobody should be touching that flue whether it's you or the owners. I appreciate from reading the rest of the thread that you've done a lot of homework but a gas safe engineer would be able to tell you A. specifically If there is any risk, B if there is any installation fault and C what potential costs would be involved to sort the situation. There have been a couple of suggestions made as to how this situation can be remedied however this still really need to be carried out by a gas safe engineer. We just appear to be going round and round in circles here. I maintain my three options from earlier as this would appear to be your landlords problem as he agreed to it he can't just ignore the problem
 
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Thanks for that Croppie.
Newcastle Phill, I never gave permission to trespass. They just do it from their extension roof. Definately unauthorised trespass by interfering with something on my property even if they do own it, but in the order of universe a mini trespass doesn't bother me as long as they don't point it at my property again. I know it can only be interfered with by a GSR engineer and wonder would an engineer take such a risk rather than ask my permission and do it from mine sensibly from a ladder?
I have called the council and their building inspector paid them a visit. The Inspector first of all said it's legally positioned and complies with regs. I was given a copy of the Building Regs Compliance Cert which says it meets Gas and Building regs. He then backed down after I sent a pic with the flue facing the open rooflights (as posted above). He then agreed it breaches doc j due to roof openings. He says they can alter the openings to make them non opening but I have no way of checking that. Since then they have turned the flue away from directly facing the openings as can be seen in later pics. The Inspector has stopped replying after I said it breaches doc j distance from boundary & he and has not got back to me re the leaks.
I was wondering how condensate gets into the air intake as it seems to me it is leaking from the exhaust pipe into the air duct. Maybe they dislodged something with their periscope turning antics. (Nice analogy newcastle phill. Made me laugh).
Incidentally the flue is not at 90 degrees to the wall it is tilted towards the wall which looks like it is putting pressure on an internal joint and possibly that's why it leaks from the air duct.
Thanks Riley and others for your posts I really do appreciate them all (the good the bad and the ugly 😉 They are all honest and straight talking which is breath of fresh air.

WP_20160113_12_10_35_Pro.jpg
 
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Best part is directly below you there is another flue which would be exiting in the same direction the way the 'problematic' flue was angled.

So

A question...

Whose flue is the other one ?
And have you complained about that too ?

Frankly the more you go on and the more images you add shows you in a worse light than previously imho
 
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Is that here and I don't mean to be derogatory but is this a wind up. The pictures are just showing a catalogue of oddities with all the boiler installs at the property ???

Can I once again suggest that you get an independent gas safe registered engineer to take a look
 
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The other flue serves my property and I have full control when it comes on and off. It used to disperse fairly well as it is pointed away from the rear wall and was well below the previous party wall height. Since the neighbours extension was built my flue is boxed in and has become problematic. You can see the frame which used to support the canopy over the kitchen door in one of the pictures I posted. The canopy was removed by me to try and help air flow but it didn't help and so my gas boiler is never used. Electric room heaters and electric immersion heater keep the water hot and the house warm. If you doubt this I've upload a screenshot of my suppliers energy efficency comparison for my home. My last gas bill I had was 371 kwh (from 15 sep to 1 dec). This is for a 3 bedroom terraced house so you can see how little gas is used (98% less than similar efficient homes). And yes I have complained about my flue but it is apparently within the legal requirements so I have to live with it. Whereas the neighbours flue makes a bad situation even worse because I can't open my bedroom window. It might sound off to you why I put up with it, but I've lived here too long. The apple tree in my garden (in a previous pic its in blossoms) was planted as a sapling by my previous wife before she passed away as a living memory of her.Now it's a proper tree and I can't take it with me so here I stay.
I had problems with the Council Building Inspector as previously stated and that didn't come out as well as it should have had I been a bit more savvy. Getting a GSR engineer to inspect the flue is obviously on the agenda but it is always a good idea to get the people who know their stuff to give their advice before doing so. That is what I am doing here. Thanks again for all who have taken the time and trouble to comment as it really does add some perspective.
WP_20160113_15_02_27_Pro.jpg
 
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I'm really sorry but this is just sounding more and more crazy nobody is going to be granted planning permission to build an extension if it is going to make their neighbours boiler redundant or at least as part of the planning permission process this would've been discussed between the owners. if it was your landlord he can't just agree for them to build an extension making your flue unsafe. Properdue diligence would have been carried out ensuring that your flue terminates safely, functionally and correctly. Unless of course there extension is illegal I am sorry to sound suspicious but something just doesn't add up
 
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Hi Riley, thanks for your comment. If the information I have provided makes you think my flue doesn't satisfy regulations because of the extension please let me know because that could make a big difference.
 
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Thanks Harry, the flue has been there for along time now so it's past the stage of urgency but I will take your advice and I will get an indepedent GAS Safe engineer. They almost certainly will not get access to the internal installation so will probably have to inspect only what you can see in the pics posted. Please could you give me something specific I can bring to the attention of the engineer. In a previous comment I explained my experience with Building Inspectors and don't want to risk missing anything. Cheers mate.
 
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The whole scenario just sounds ridiculous to me. All I can tell you is that the manufacturers instructions well set out exactly how you're boiler will work giving worst case scenario clearances. If your boiler is within these guide lines then the boiler will work if it doesn't then it's something the manufacturer needs to take a look at. All the same this isn't for you to sort out get a gas safe engineer out
 
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Yashimaki said:
Thanks Harry, the flue has been there for along time now so it's past the stage of urgency but I will take your advice and I will get an indepedent GAS Safe engineer. They almost certainly will not get access to the internal installation so will probably have to inspect only what you can see in the pics posted. Please could you give me something specific I can bring to the attention of the engineer. In a previous comment I explained my experience with Building Inspectors and don't want to risk missing anything. Cheers mate.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say mate you are not going to get anybody committing to something on here to use as your evidence as we are working purely based on photos provided by you and we cannot give an objective opinion based on this. I am sure you can appreciate that these photos are not indicative of the whole install and that other underlying issues that you have missed off exist. One of our guys off here may be happy to come out and check it out? Where are you
 
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Hi Riley Gas installations do not need planning permission and there is no requirement to discuss what you intend to do with neighbours before starting to build.
 
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Hi Riley fair comment. No one in their right mind would ever consider using advice from an internet forum as evidence. Anyone trying to do that would have a pickle for a brain. I only wanted information and nothing else. The only thing that matters are hard facts. If there were any obvious breaches of regs or dangerous faults from the pictures I would have appreciated them being pointed out. I can give you my contact details in a PM if you want so can you recommend someone local to me or tell me how I find a good engineer?
 
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Yashimaki said:
Hi Riley Gas installations do not need planning permission and there is no requirement to discuss what you intend to do with neighbours before starting to build.
Click to expand...
Post here

[DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL]

My point was not planning for the gas install.

But rather when they built their extension your install should have been taken into account.

This is the issue when flues cross boundaries etc this is why I find what's gone on hardto comprehend
 
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Thanks Riley. I am sorry if I came accross as a bit iffy but this has been going on for some time and my problem certainly seems to be an odd one so fully appreciate all concerns expressed. Your response to the pic of my flue got me thinking and having taken another look at doc J, it says min distance to a terminal facing a terminal is 1200mm so if my flue counts as facing the neighbours terminal then they clearly can't put their flue where it is with or without permission. I never considered that before but you certainly got me thinking so cheers for that.
Believe it or not I have got a life apart from this so it sort of crept up to this stage.
Anyway I do thank you sincerely for the proverbial boot up the jacksy as it got me to put me thinking hat on.
 
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Yashimaki said:
It might sound off to you why I put up with it, but I've lived here too long. The apple tree in my garden (in a previous pic its in blossoms) was planted as a sapling by my previous wife before she passed away as a living memory of her.Now it's a proper tree and I can't take it with me so here I stay.
Click to expand...

Funny how there is always a "Tug of the heart strings" in these long winded threads, usually around post 30-40.
 
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The op wants to think himself lucky they didnt fit a vertical flue.
Im sure he'd be complaining about that even more ??

I hope the landlord never landscapes the garden..
 
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Thas why they've used a higher plume kit than you have so that it's not within 1200mm of your flue. Don't you have another bedroom that you could move into and use your current one as a guest room, problem solved. You don't breath in any fumes and you can start using your boiler again too which would reduce your bills. Another suggestion would be to get a gas registered engineer to come and have a look and double check the installations I. E. Flue terminations although I think someone may have suggested this already. Whilst they were ther they could measure the fumes in your bedroom with their flue gas analyser.

Which town/county are you in, maybe one of us will be local to you.
 
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Hi finchy. I thought the 1200mm applied to the actual installation and could not be fixed with a kit. The engineer inspection is already in the pipeline so hopefully they will know the score on that one. They can also advise on what can be done to get my flue to function properly.
Moving house or room is not an option.
To measure the fumes is totally impractical. They would need to be there when the flue is operating and the window was open and the prevailing weather conditions caused the fumes to come into the bedroom. The only practical evidence apart from anecdotal would be video or photographic plus a degree of common sense I guess. Maybe an outdoor alarm near the flue would be an option.
I don't know if you can help on this one. I would like to know if this flue could be subject to a mandatory Landlords annual safety check as my one is as there is no way of knowing if the flue is operating within specifications? It would also deal with any future malfunctions such as dripping condensate etc.
 
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newcastle phill said:
The op wants to think himself lucky they didnt fit a vertical flue.
Im sure he'd be complaining about that even more ??

I hope the landlord never landscapes the garden..
Click to expand...
A vertical flue would have to be in the neighbours roof so why would that be considered lucky for me they didn't do that? I'd love for them to do that.
My landlord has no authority to do anything in my garden it would be a breach of contract. Just the same as allowing a flue to be in it. So funny enough a vertical flue would have kept them out the trouble they are in.
 
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Because a Vertical flue would be discharging the fumes in the same area!
And like you say would be perfectly ok, thats why he said you were lucky.
TBH I dont think you are going to get the answer you want in this case, especially as the landlord, the owner of the property gave his permission for the flue to be on his property.
 
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You seem to be under the false impression I am asserting my flue does not meet regs. I have only referred to the neighbours flue meeting regs.
 
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You dont use your boiler because in your opinion the fumes do not disperse, what I was trying to point out to you is that the fumes should be getting away correctly because your flue meets the regs and has been designed to work where it is.
 
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In post 48 i actualy stated "And yes I have complained about my flue but it is apparently within the legal requirements so I have to live with it".
 
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Yashimaki said:
A vertical flue would have to be in the neighbours roof so why would that be considered lucky for me they didn't do that? I'd love for them to do that.
My landlord has no authority to do anything in my garden it would be a breach of contract. Just the same as allowing a flue to be in it. So funny enough a vertical flue would have kept them out the trouble they are in.
Click to expand...
Because the plume would be worse for you
 
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0304 Driver. I don't get it. Sympathy for GSR person and walking into a can of worms sounds a bit emotive. Surely the GSR inspector will be a expert who examines the situation and makes a professional report based on his skill and knowledge. I certainly hope so or they will get a can worms freshly dug from my garden (that's meant as a joke by the way)
 
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I think all they are trying to get out mate is that you won't be convinced you've had at least 10 of us on here telling you certain things which are just questioned constantly. If your boiler is installed to manufacturers instructions it will work and fumes will disperse safely. Really you just have to trust the manufacturers on their design as manufacturers instructions are gospel
 
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All I am trying to get out is the flue doesn't disperse whatever may be printed on paper and I have accepted I can't change it so I live with it. I know it sounds extraordinary someone would accept never switching their central heating on and my integrity is being questioned on here so that's why I uploaded proof. I just don't use my gas boiler any more. I've dealt with it. Maybe there's a solution which someone on here could provide or a GS engineer can provide e.g. a diversion kit or a refence to a breach of regs and then I can switch it on again which would be great. As it stands it's not in use. That's my choice albeit reluctant. As I've said an an engineer is being organised so we'll see how that pans out.
Cheers Riley
 
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I'm sorry mate I find it staggering what you are "putting up with" and continuing to pay a full rent to your landlord. I understand your reasoning for staying However I do question what your landlord would do if anything serious ever happened. I'm sorry I just don't buy the boiler bit, If your boiler is installed correctly it will work, end of, unless there is actually a fault with the boiler itself. Good luck with the gas engineer I think we will all be interested to know his findings
 
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Yashimaki said:
Not true. I didn't give permission and there certainly are gas safe issues, e.g. leaks, position, Reg 28 etc.
Click to expand...
Its not your house to decide - it seems your a council tennant.
You want to make decisions about a property - buy one
 
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You are a tenant so it's basically nothing to do with you. If your neighbour wanted access they would approach your landlord or worst case go to court to gain access. Bottom line is you are not in a position to stop them.

Go buy yourself a flue gas analyser and take readings at your window.

However I would recommend directing your frustrations at something you are able to influence. Lifes too short.
 
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I get the point Riley. The boiler meets specs. The facts on the ground are the plumes does not disperse as it used to. I will defo let you know the outcome with engineer.
Have you anything to say about the neighbours flue not being properly upright due to a too short upper bracket. The elbow joint does not look like it's meant to take the strain and the outer seal to the wall is distorted because the top is bent in and the bottom is being pulled out showing the whole fixture is being pulled up because the flue extension is acting like a lever. IMHO this looks like the integrity of the joint has been jeopardised and that is where the leak of condensate from the air intake is coming from. I guess after so long the components would be classed as unfit for purpose and require attention including a longer upper bracket and the exhaust elbows and seals would need to replaced.
The Installer should have not made this mistake and if the flue had been in a positon where it was readily accessible for inspection and maintenance (Reg28) the problem could have been identified and fixed a long time ago. I suppose that's why good old reg28 was made. It's OK I understand you do not critisize fellow engineers and don't miss an opportunity to critisize anyone who does (I am refering to others comments about me not yours, some quite harse) but when such a blatantly bad job is done then it really aught to be a matter for a website devoted to a well respected profession to do something or say something as it reflects on you all when cowboys are out there.
 
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We can and often doo criticise other engineers. Move on

But you are coming across a proper bell and you now need to move on.

Your going round in circles.
You have been on to the council and they have sent you packing. Move on.

You have no practical appreciation of what you are talking about and you can read the regs till your blue the face but it wont change what you have already been told. Move on.
 
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I get the point Riley. The boiler meets specs. The facts on the ground are the plumes does not disperse as it used to. I will defo let you know the outcome with engineer.
Have you anything to say about the neighbours flue not being properly upright due to a too short upper bracket. The elbow joint does not look like it's meant to take the strain and the outer seal to the wall is distorted because the top is bent in and the bottom is being pulled out showing the whole fixture is being pulled up because the flue extension is acting like a lever. IMHO this looks like the integrity of the joint has been jeopardised and that is where the leak of condensate from the air intake is coming from. I guess after so long the components would be classed as unfit for purpose and require attention including a longer upper bracket and the exhaust elbows and seals would need to replaced.
The Installer should have not made this mistake and if the flue had been in a positon where it was readily accessible for inspection and maintenance (Reg28) the problem could have been identified and fixed a long time ago. I suppose that's why good old reg28 was made. It's OK I understand you do not critisize fellow engineers and don't miss an opportunity to critisize anyone who does (I am refering to others comments about me not yours, some quite harse) but when such a blatantly bad job is done then it really aught to be a matter for a website devoted to a well respected profession to do something or say something as it reflects on you all when cowboys are out there.
 
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