just the way you wrote that there 😛 yeah but its the total 4 year they do now, not the 3 year they used to do
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
If it's the fast trackers you mean, then this is a good idea and would be even better if part government funded. Otherwise they'd need to have a bit of experience before being paid 85% of the rate.why can they not be trained on the job and work as a plumbers mate, no responsibity and about 85% of a plumbers wage
like i said they still run, i know adults on apprenticeships
Then we'll ship them all down to you lot then. LOLdidnt know it was that different in scotland, they sill run in the mighty england
Don't Know if you read it properly, but Its About 120-130 days in total on the fast track, Where as the college is 144 or so days.
Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?
I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?
go to canada you dont start your apprentiship til your 21, Ive got family over there plumbers all their life got big houses swimming pools and bars in their basement 🙂 thats the life but sadly for me they cant understand what I'm saying 😛
A little update for y'all. You may be pleased to know that HSE is 'reviewing' fast track gas courses & defining a set path with a view to possibly abolishing the route that was sold to me along with redesigning the ACS ie; 1 day per year instead of 1 week per 5 years. As I stated earlier that there was no defined path into the industry & it is possible to jump ahead. This may soon change as Fuzzy said NVQ2 then NVQ3. Got it from the horses' mouth yesterday! (local Gas Safe Inspector). Oh & did you know that Wat1 is being scrapped & will be included with CEN1 from April?(still have to be assessed on it)
do you mean that we are going to have to train for ACS every year now instead of 5 years ?
Oh at least £200 I should think. ACS is a joke anyway it needs to be tightened up e.g closed book and not allowing people to pretty much give the answers. Last time I went there were three council lads there, didn't have a clue but got through anyway one had to go back the next day I didn't think that was allowed.
well they should be regulated then to prevent it happening, and fined heavily if doing so.
So were going to have to sit in a classroom doing gas training every year soon ?
Every 5 years or 1 year? We won't have a say. It will just be imposed on us.
At the end of the day ACS is a paper pass the buck excersise. It is not designed to fail, (2 attempts then spear the answer out of you by interrogation) if it was who would do the work? The few who could pass closed book would never be able to cope with the work demand and the powers that be know this. So, they put us through this sham every 5 years, not for the benefit of few, but for the many. You could be brain dead and illiterate and still pass. Those who fail should be ............well i just deleted that bit..........it wasn't nice..........to them!
Once you have "passed" you are then officially the "responsible person" ie the buck stops with you. It is your call but call it wrong and you will pay the price personally.
The main beneficiaries are the industry built up around training. There will never be a need or call for less training, only more.
In house training will happen as the influence of the big players is too great to resist. Generally the likes of BG are far in advance of smaller companies with their in house stuff as it is.
Transco already do this through Advantica and believe me there is no impartiality on that side. It is a lot more in depth and far stricter.
What they do need to look at is on the job experience tied in to the ACS which i have many opinions on but don't know the answer to, but neither do those in charge.
The whole fast track system is flawed in this respect. How much is enough experience? 10, 20, 30 jobs? who can say. Everyone is different. Only the man giving the practical training knows what that person is like. Some may be quick to learn, some may be slow.
This goes back to a proper apprenticeship. Anyone who has had an apprentice under them knows what they are capable of doing without supervision and let them progress accordingly. Some will take to the gas it in a few months, some will take to other things quicker and may take years to be ready.
As an employer and trainer, i personally know when someone is capable of being let loose as would any journeyman.
I (unlike any training establishments AND the ruling bodies) have a conscience. I could never let a lad loose who didn't know what he was doing even if he thought he could. He would be ready when i decided. If he fkd up then i have too, in my responsibility not only to him but to the public.
Perhaps i may be old fashioned in my thinking but i know any apprentice (trainee if you like) i have ever had, knew what he was doing before i let him do it on his own unsupervised.
Our world is changing and not all for the good but we have little influence over it🙁
In my opinion shouldn't be allowed to fill a gas lighter
I'm all too aware of the reputation of fast trackers (and I'm one too) especially on this forum. In fairness though, as long as you treat the course like a driving test (it's only when you pass that you really learn how to drive) you can only pick up proper experience and diagnostic skills when you're out trying to earn a living. It's not the job of fast track centres to give you all the knowledge you might require.
The role they do fill though is in teaching you some of the basics (e.g. cold water pipes below hot water, decent soldering skills, awareness of where to cut through joists, etc. Taking the last point it's potentially quite dangerous to cut and notch joists without real knowledge. So while fast track courses do not give you everything they do at least give the basics and make you aware of the pitfalls.
The best way of learning though is through an apprenticeship. But when you're 30+ no one is interested in taking you on as an apprentice and if you want a career change (because you've run out of work as your sewing machine repair workshop gets no more work) fast tracking is the only option to you.
I'm not saying the centres are dishonest (but some are certainly bending the rules) or that we shouldn't have to do retraining but the ACS stuff is not set up to make sure you can actually do the job but to provide you with the knowledge of the regulations that have to be applied. There are many who come out ACS centres having passed, that you would as Eco said, not allow to fill a gas lighter. Now you are not going to tell me the trainers don't know this too but as they have passed the test, their hands are tied.
If they make it an annual thing then it will surely only cover any changes to the regs. Do you think it would be better to only learn what has changed or run through the lot again?
I think it is better the way it is where at least they may hopefully learn something but it is still not ideal.
I mainly do bathrooms and wetrooms and rarely do boilers, but I did my acs. Would think twice about doing it again if I had to do it every year.
Yes
I do think they are damaging to the industry for the wrong people. If your a person who has very little practical experiance in anything, these courses are lethal.
If for example your in the building trade already and you want to add to your repetoir of skills for doing the odd bits and pieces then this can be of help.
I also believe that anyone who decides that they are going to train as an architect should have a couple of years experiance of being a plumber/heating engineer, my reason for saying for this is having spent many years doing installations is architects are great at giving the customer what they want but little practical experiance in how we have to implement the design
do you mean that we are going to have to train for ACS every year now instead of 5 years ?
That's so true, but I suspect that some centres take on newbies at face value of their "experience".ACS isnt there to train you as a gas fitter, just a competence safetty check , not for newbies
times change the apprentice route has almost disappeared but a lot has to be said of the individual some folk will pay 5 - 8 grand and will be useless one will get a job at a young age and be very good, get paid very little, but be very good.
qualification numbers mean nothing if the person is even good.
You do not even need a qualification to fit a bathroom or a kitchen sink or an outside tap
What you do need is customers
Now where is the fast track or apprenticeship in that
times change the apprentice route has almost disappeared but a lot has to be said of the individual some folk will pay 5 - 8 grand and will be useless one will get a job at a young age and be very good, get paid very little, but be very good.
qualification numbers mean nothing if the person is even good.
You do not even need a qualification to fit a bathroom or a kitchen sink or an outside tap
What you do need is customers
Now where is the fast track or apprenticeship in that
Yes
I started in 1978 a full apprenticeship and got C&G advanced craft in Plumbing.
Working yesterday with my new apprentice, and just before we turned the water back on I said "have you double checked all your fittings are soldered or tightened" ......... Yes he replied, so I got him to turn on the water, we got a leak............... a compression nut I forgot to tighten!
He got the blame though........ I said he should have checked mine too. 🙂
Oh by the way did mine in 1978 full apprenticeship and got C&G advanced, we also did leadwork and glazing was part of the job to, i worked for my firm for 5 years then bit the bullet and went self employed, still learning till this day things have changed in a huge way new products etc.
So my answer is it takes a dam sight longer than 2 weeks or even 2 years to be let loose on peoples houses, i blame the goverment, also standards are low workmanship etc, my theory is simple, when i complete a job i would be happy to show anybody it, and put my name to it, maybe i have been lucky but in 28 years of been self employed i have always got paid, its not just the work you carry out but its also the way you treat customers, like turn up when you say you are, dust sheets, politness to customers and treating there propery with respect, leave job as if you hadnt been there by hoovering up etc, its all common sense really, or am i old fashioned but that how my boss taught me.
Oh by the way did mine in 1978 full apprenticeship and got C&G advanced, we also did leadwork and glazing was part of the job to, i worked for my firm for 5 years then bit the bullet and went self employed, still learning till this day things have changed in a huge way new products etc.
So my answer is it takes a dam sight longer than 2 weeks or even 2 years to be let loose on peoples houses, i blame the goverment, also standards are low workmanship etc, my theory is simple, when i complete a job i would be happy to show anybody it, and put my name to it, maybe i have been lucky but in 28 years of been self employed i have always got paid, its not just the work you carry out but its also the way you treat customers, like turn up when you say you are, dust sheets, politness to customers and treating there propery with respect, leave job as if you hadnt been there by hoovering up etc, its all common sense really, or am i old fashioned but that how my boss taught me.
then how come americans are getting a gallon for $2 ?
i know, and thats why most of it is tax ! the government is in debt, so they raise VAT and taxes
Price of oil is the main reason for the rise. Same as most commodities (e.g. copper, cotton, cocoa)
Because they're good at bombing oil rich countries to keep the barrels flowing.then how come americans are getting a gallon for $2 ?
sorry you have lost me.yeah. thats still right.! and still not outdated unlike the thread.
I would never do something like digging old threads out of the most popular threads 😉. But I remember one saying: we all done it already.
We recommend City Plumbing Supplies, BES, and Plumbing Superstore for all plumbing supplies.