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fuzzy
so who does the electrica when youve fitted a central heating system? do you want to spend another 4 years as an apprentice to wire it up?
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
so who does the electrica when youve fitted a central heating system? do you want to spend another 4 years as an apprentice to wire it up?
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Plum Bob 66
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Guest123
A fully qualified electrician does that for me and he gives me a safety certificate when he's finished. I add his fee on to the bill and when I explain to the customer that he/she is getting electrics done by a fully qualified electrician and it will be guaranteed safe complete with a certificate and guarantee, they always agree.
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fuzzy
well its supposed to be a plumbers job, thats why they teach it on the plumbing course, you need a vrq part p to enable you to certify, no different to learning gas then needing you acs. thats why competence person schemes are excellent for the industry
the problem is people use them as short cuts, often sold as full courses by private money making companies. dont blame the qual or the tradesman, blame the people misusing and miselling them
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fuzzy
well its supposed to be a plumbers job, thats why they teach it on the plumbing course, you need a vrq part p to enable you to certify, no different to learning gas then needing you acs. thats why competence person schemes are excellent for the industry
the problem is people use them as short cuts, often sold as full courses by private money making companies. dont blame the qual or the tradesman, blame the people misusing and miselling them
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Dormouse
As a fast tracker I completely agree, I was & still am very surprised at how little studying was involved to become Gas Safe registered. I've been re-training full time for the best part of a year & I don't feel as though I have enough knowledge which is why I'm starting a Level 2 NVQ. As for probation, Gas Safe have all new subscribers on a 3 month probation & request evidence of work, although saying that the evidence can be landlords certs 😕 where's the evidence of safe gas work there ? yes... cooker works.... yes.... boiler works.... no soot, smells or dodgy flame... heres your certificate... £90 please !
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Dormouse
Just to add to my previous thread. Another thing that concerns me, a chap on my course had been a plumber for the best part of 25 years & he nearly failed his gas ACS. I've changed a few sink wastes & flew through my ACS.
I'm now fully qualified to fit an entire heating system in someones house & he very nearly wasn't!
I'm now fully qualified to fit an entire heating system in someones house & he very nearly wasn't!
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fuzzy
you took the short cut if your doing your nvq after the acs! its not desinged for newbies, if you bluffed your way onto the course it is you at fault not the course
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Dormouse
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fuzzy
NVQ is C&G???? C&G are an awarding body not a qualification?
gas fast tracker, so you have gas quals or only your acs? what you dont seem torealise is the acs is for experienced trades people, not newbies or fast trackers, if you and others have found a loop hole dont then blame he course, its you and the people charging you for the short cut who are at fault
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Dormouse
'Never stop learning' interesting choice of words Fuzzy.
I clearly have a lot to learn & I realise that.
I thought I was going in the right direction.
You seem very intollerent of my inexperience, what do you suggest ?
Maybe I can get a job as a tea boy for a plumber at the age of 35 with a family & morgage for the next some years.
There is one thing that I have noticed in the short time that I have been retraining & that is that there are a lot of unhelpful plumbing & heating guys out there.
It's not as if I woke up one morning & thought, d'ya know what, I'm going to embark on a very expensive & lengthy process of upsetting every bloke who fixes leaky taps!
Why would I realise the ACS is for experienced trades people? I'm new to the industry !
What are you talking about a 'loop hole' & 'short cuts'?.. how long do you propose it should take to be Gas qualified? so far it's taken me 8 months full time.
I clearly have a lot to learn & I realise that.
I thought I was going in the right direction.
You seem very intollerent of my inexperience, what do you suggest ?
Maybe I can get a job as a tea boy for a plumber at the age of 35 with a family & morgage for the next some years.
There is one thing that I have noticed in the short time that I have been retraining & that is that there are a lot of unhelpful plumbing & heating guys out there.
It's not as if I woke up one morning & thought, d'ya know what, I'm going to embark on a very expensive & lengthy process of upsetting every bloke who fixes leaky taps!
Why would I realise the ACS is for experienced trades people? I'm new to the industry !
What are you talking about a 'loop hole' & 'short cuts'?.. how long do you propose it should take to be Gas qualified? so far it's taken me 8 months full time.
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fuzzy
im not sure what point your trying to make? you say you are surprised how easy it was to get your acs, then you question how long it should take as if 8 mnths is too long, please make your ming up and make it clear what your issues are and i can help you get on the right course and the right direction.
dont know what point your making with unhlepful plumbers either?
i was following your thread amd wondering how you have you ccn1,i was under the impression you have to have at least a plumbing qualification level2 nvq , and you say your qualified to fit a central heating system, but can you !
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Dormouse
No!
That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make.
I paid for a gas ACS (ccn1,cen1,ckr1,htr1,cpa1,EEDH-part L) training course which took me 6 months to complete, it was a full time practical, workshop, theory & classroom course, the course could be theorectically completed in just two months as you only had to complete 25 gas related jobs. Once the exams are passed, which they are, I am now legally allowed to install a full heating system from scratch! To me, that's mental ! As I have no industry experience, gas or water, I am now trying to gain some training related to water (to be able to do it right). Although there is actually no requirement for me to do so. I am agreeing with the time served guys on here that it isn't enough time. The 8 months reference is how long I have been training for as I have been going on other courses & getting work experience (unpaid) elsewhere (my choice). There seems to be a set path into the industry which I appear to be skipping certain parts or doing in the wrong order. This was never an issue for me before as I came in directly into gas from a completely different sector.
That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make.
I paid for a gas ACS (ccn1,cen1,ckr1,htr1,cpa1,EEDH-part L) training course which took me 6 months to complete, it was a full time practical, workshop, theory & classroom course, the course could be theorectically completed in just two months as you only had to complete 25 gas related jobs. Once the exams are passed, which they are, I am now legally allowed to install a full heating system from scratch! To me, that's mental ! As I have no industry experience, gas or water, I am now trying to gain some training related to water (to be able to do it right). Although there is actually no requirement for me to do so. I am agreeing with the time served guys on here that it isn't enough time. The 8 months reference is how long I have been training for as I have been going on other courses & getting work experience (unpaid) elsewhere (my choice). There seems to be a set path into the industry which I appear to be skipping certain parts or doing in the wrong order. This was never an issue for me before as I came in directly into gas from a completely different sector.
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fuzzy
dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.
The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.
Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade
So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.
i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?
The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.
Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade
So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.
i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?
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Guest123
My point is that as plumbers are we to be electricians, joiners, builders, roofers or whatever else. What's the point in having apprenticeships and learning each trade if we can go on a two week course and become a jack of all trades, master of none. I know a former bank clerk who'd never lifted a hammer in his life and he's out claiming to be able to fit gas appliances after sitting a week long course. Bloody dangerous this! A proper apprenticeship takes time as mine did (4 years) and you actually learn more on the job than sitting in a classroom. Every day's a school day and you never stop learning new things. There's no way anyone should gain trade qualifications in 2 weeks, and even moreso if they've never even done any diy or building work in their life. The industry is getting hit from all sectors and the TV is full of Cowboy Builders programmes. We don't need any more hassle. If someone employs me to fit their bathroom, it's because they think that as a professional I can do a better job than if they attempted to diy. All it takes is for one inexperienced "tradesman" to muck it up and blow their perception of why they employed a "professional" in the first place.
Electrics are for electricians, joinery for joiners etc. or why bother sitting an individual trade apprenticeship in the first place. And just because you have a piece of paper stating that you are qualified to fit electrics, doesn't make you competent to do it!
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fuzzy
i have no issue ith them if used with their intended purpose. Its the people who take short cuts and sell inapropiate courses who are to blame and this has caused alot of concern for summitskills. Competence person scheme are here to stay im afraid, better to educate people rather than dismiss them because we are either scared of confused by them.
I am a plumber with my VRQ full scope part P. i dont think im an electrician but i know i can wire up a central heating system better than many sparks i know. I use it for the right reasons on appropiate jobs, thats what its for and in that scenario it works.
Blame the centres misleading people like Dormouse, not the qual itself
I am a plumber with my VRQ full scope part P. i dont think im an electrician but i know i can wire up a central heating system better than many sparks i know. I use it for the right reasons on appropiate jobs, thats what its for and in that scenario it works.
Blame the centres misleading people like Dormouse, not the qual itself
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fuzzy
right, going to bed now, dont want you to miss my reply dormouse, goodnight all,
dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.
The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.
Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade
So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.
i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?
dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.
The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.
Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade
So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.
i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?
surly dormouth can not do any gas job of any significance competently with a clear conscience, but is he to blame,these companys offering people dreams with no regard to the person or the industry,
the fact that you can get an ACS without any previous trade experience or any knowledge of a boiler or heating system, and legally be able to install one of these systems, is mad .. I don't think these people should be out on their own doin work like this, they should be supervised or working for someone else
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fuzzy
you cannot obtain your acs without previous experience or quialifications. I dont know how dormouse has achieved it without the experience as this is not legal. My point is dont blame the qualification as theres nothing wrong with it, its the people misusing or misellng and misleading candidates who are to blame. hence my phrase 'loop hole'
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Dormouse
Fuzzy, great reply... I wish it had been explained to me that way from the start !
Please anybody, don't assume I'm some sort of fly by night cowboy, I switched industries, I havn't just left school. I've spent over 15 years in transport/logistics starting at the bottom & progressing on to running my own recruitment agency. I'm quite aware of personal development which is why I'm doing the NVQ. I know a lot of guys that have done similar courses to me & jumped straight into the job head first..! I've seen the mistakes.. I don't want to repeat them.
FYI the course I did was ;
Gas Training Courses, Electrician & Plumbing Courses | Get Training
Read the first line...
I did the 'Get To Gas Full Time' course with six others, after that I was placed with a large heating company for 6 weeks doing social & private boiler/fire services & breakdowns @ 8 a day (about 200), then the next 12 weeks doing two or three installs a week (about 30) & some powerflushing. The next few months were spent voluntarily at manufacturers various training courses, Vaillant, Baxi, Honeywell, Vokera, Viessmann, Glow Worm etc.
This is extra that I have paid for, bearing in mind that I'm under no obligation to do so with my current quals.
At no point in time, considering the amount of industry proffessionals I met, did anyone tell me about an NVQ, I found this out by myself after completing my ACS.
Am I at fault here?
It's easy to point the finger at newbies & say they are incompetent but if not one single person in 8 months thought to mention that I might need some knowledge of water before I subscribed to this forum, including the large heating company, that sounds to me like an industry problem not an issue with individuals.
In the transport sector you can't just pass your driving test & jump into a petrol tanker, there are laws & systems in place to stop that from happening. Sorry for the long comment....
Please anybody, don't assume I'm some sort of fly by night cowboy, I switched industries, I havn't just left school. I've spent over 15 years in transport/logistics starting at the bottom & progressing on to running my own recruitment agency. I'm quite aware of personal development which is why I'm doing the NVQ. I know a lot of guys that have done similar courses to me & jumped straight into the job head first..! I've seen the mistakes.. I don't want to repeat them.
FYI the course I did was ;
Gas Training Courses, Electrician & Plumbing Courses | Get Training
Read the first line...
I did the 'Get To Gas Full Time' course with six others, after that I was placed with a large heating company for 6 weeks doing social & private boiler/fire services & breakdowns @ 8 a day (about 200), then the next 12 weeks doing two or three installs a week (about 30) & some powerflushing. The next few months were spent voluntarily at manufacturers various training courses, Vaillant, Baxi, Honeywell, Vokera, Viessmann, Glow Worm etc.
This is extra that I have paid for, bearing in mind that I'm under no obligation to do so with my current quals.
At no point in time, considering the amount of industry proffessionals I met, did anyone tell me about an NVQ, I found this out by myself after completing my ACS.
Am I at fault here?
It's easy to point the finger at newbies & say they are incompetent but if not one single person in 8 months thought to mention that I might need some knowledge of water before I subscribed to this forum, including the large heating company, that sounds to me like an industry problem not an issue with individuals.
In the transport sector you can't just pass your driving test & jump into a petrol tanker, there are laws & systems in place to stop that from happening. Sorry for the long comment....
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Guest123
I know which is a good thing. So why is the same law not in place for trades where peoples lives can be put at risk by incompitence?
Dormouse you are to be commended for realising that you need experience not just a qualification and for going out there and seeking it.
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fuzzy
wasnt blaming you dormouse, quite the opposite, its the fault of the training provider who is using the qual in the wrong manner. i presume the comapny didnt really care or they were being paid?
point to note, you dont need water quals to do gas? if you want to get into gas the recognised qual is a gas nvq, the acs is the last assessment you should take not the first
point to note, you dont need water quals to do gas? if you want to get into gas the recognised qual is a gas nvq, the acs is the last assessment you should take not the first
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fagsanbooz
Agree with you, system 3. Dormouse sounds like he's conscientious and wants to do the right thing. There are these courses that you do not need qualifications for but,... they were originally designed for people in the trade without the certificates but with a great deal of experience (i.e. Plumbers mates etc) However, me thinks some dodgy dealings are afoot with the training 'cowboys', I hear one such company on talksport all the time saying 'change career' etc
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fuzzy
well said, the training providers are misleading i feel. i post the facts and im called negative,its not negative its factual
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REDSAW
Hope i didnt miss-read the training provider there,
but it states the course is for experienced plumbers?.
How did you get on the gas course or are they short cutting their own standards for ££££?
but it states the course is for experienced plumbers?.
How did you get on the gas course or are they short cutting their own standards for ££££?
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tamz
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fuzzy
thats the point i keep trying to make, cheers redsaw, i though i was the only one seeing it
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Guest123
Fuzzy, I thoroughly agree with you, it's the training providers who offer false promises of megabucks earnings that are to blame. But, candidates must shoulder some of the blame too, as do these people seriously believe that they can gain a qualification/profession in only 2 weeks!? Many of these have came from completely unrelated professions and have formerly undergone lengthy training in order to perform that profession. Why do they think that plumbing, gas fitting, electrics etc. should be any different? Some are looking for what they think is an easy and profitable way out of their current mundane careers (clever marketing by the training providers does this), and others are just trying to get a career after being thrown on the scrap heap due to age, banking crisis, or any other factors.
However before I spend two grand (or whatever it costs these days) on a training course, I'd put in a little research first to find out if the claims of the training centres are in fact true and if it's worth spending all that money. The easiest way of course is to ask others who've actually been on one of these courses. I'd also be soul searching and being honest with myself and asking if I'm actually capable of carrying out my training in the real world safely and to a professional standard. I'd doubt it if in two weeks anyone is capable of either.
i didnt start doing work until mid way through my 2nd year, before that i was just the tea boy and tool/material fetcher but obviously seeing how it was done properly
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Guest123
Same here. You watch and learn while on the job, not sitting in a classroom, then your only allowed to work when your tradesman/company thinks your capable. I served much of my time doing leadwork on roofs as well as domestic plumbing, so I consider myself lucky to have the best of both worlds.
took me about a year to get used to the names of tools, different pipe sizes( I worked commercial so there were alot of different pipe sizes) and the names of fittings etc etc. I got the knowledge of both worlds though domestic and commercial plumbing n heating, but not so much lead just done that in college abso hated it. Only thing I didnt get a crack at myself was Arc welding for the commercial boiler houses
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Plum Bob 66
Dear All
I have watched these post over the last few days and to be fair all I can conclude is that the £5k I spent on training to become a plumber was money flushed down the proverbial.
I enroled with New Career skills based out of Southhampton & Doncaster and attended over the last 16 months 4 training weeks whlst completing a portfolio based arround tutor marked assesments and coursework. Apologies if my earlier posts re qaulifications seemed a little naive.
I have serious issues with NCS which I will be taking further. That said I would be grateful if you could give me the best advice as which course I should now get myself on in order to further my knowledge base. As I went self employed December 09, this would have to be on a part basis.I feel sure given what I have read any advice in reply will be of use to others following this thread.
Plum Bob
I have watched these post over the last few days and to be fair all I can conclude is that the £5k I spent on training to become a plumber was money flushed down the proverbial.
I enroled with New Career skills based out of Southhampton & Doncaster and attended over the last 16 months 4 training weeks whlst completing a portfolio based arround tutor marked assesments and coursework. Apologies if my earlier posts re qaulifications seemed a little naive.
I have serious issues with NCS which I will be taking further. That said I would be grateful if you could give me the best advice as which course I should now get myself on in order to further my knowledge base. As I went self employed December 09, this would have to be on a part basis.I feel sure given what I have read any advice in reply will be of use to others following this thread.
Plum Bob
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fuzzy
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REDSAW
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REDSAW
sounds like the sales reps pitch there, to see if you really are suitable for taking up one of their places;-(so you sit there nodding your head ten-to-the penny in agreement for the £60k pa licence).
but they fail to mention;- I'd doubt it if in two weeks anyone is capable of either.lol.
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Plum Bob 66
Hi Fuzzy
Well basically it just water regs through Bpec and 6128 unvented, I read your earlier replys which more or less stated they were less than useless and not plumbing qauls, but isnt that laughable when they came with the NCS course. As also stated doing my part P defined scope end of March. I dont want keep sailing off into the deluded blue yonder thinking I get by with the basics because you cant and yes I have a conscience. I came from a catering background to "retrain" and in the 27 years I was a chef I gained every City and guilds qaul going and had the same thougts as you guys when some whippersnapper entered the Industry and became a Head chef after 2 years. Hope you understand the analogy here. Theres no replacement for experience and every job I go to I learn something new, but I want the paper work to go with it. Believe it or not my route isnt the easy route! I never set out in this Industry to put time served noses out of joint, just make a living doing the job as dilligently as possible.
Bob.
Well basically it just water regs through Bpec and 6128 unvented, I read your earlier replys which more or less stated they were less than useless and not plumbing qauls, but isnt that laughable when they came with the NCS course. As also stated doing my part P defined scope end of March. I dont want keep sailing off into the deluded blue yonder thinking I get by with the basics because you cant and yes I have a conscience. I came from a catering background to "retrain" and in the 27 years I was a chef I gained every City and guilds qaul going and had the same thougts as you guys when some whippersnapper entered the Industry and became a Head chef after 2 years. Hope you understand the analogy here. Theres no replacement for experience and every job I go to I learn something new, but I want the paper work to go with it. Believe it or not my route isnt the easy route! I never set out in this Industry to put time served noses out of joint, just make a living doing the job as dilligently as possible.
Bob.
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jimbo.1234
Is there anyone who knows how to get some sample questions fpr my acs i have it booked for friday. I am bricking it.
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fagsanbooz
Wouldn't worry about the theory too much, open book etc but the practical is where i would swot up on! all the processes, procedures, techniques and basic safety checks for everything etc
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jase158
I did my training at college and did the fast track for my nvq,
No they are Not destroying the industry, The Plumbers who will not take on an apprentice, Is ruining the industry, I sent 160 letters to plumbers, offering to work for free to gain experience and received a disgraceful 10 replies all saying NO. How am I suppose to learn if nobody will take me on.
I learnt all the building regs, i.e. at college.
But the 2 weeks courses are actually 10 weeks. This is 50 days. College have 2 days a week over 24 weeks, equalling 48 days so you work it out.
The NVQ is 6 visits on site, which is exactly the same as in college.
For me there is no different, except that the college is all a bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there, and they have had it all free.
Training centres are all people who actually want to be there and have paid for their course so there is about 30 per cent more training time.
No they are Not destroying the industry, The Plumbers who will not take on an apprentice, Is ruining the industry, I sent 160 letters to plumbers, offering to work for free to gain experience and received a disgraceful 10 replies all saying NO. How am I suppose to learn if nobody will take me on.
I learnt all the building regs, i.e. at college.
But the 2 weeks courses are actually 10 weeks. This is 50 days. College have 2 days a week over 24 weeks, equalling 48 days so you work it out.
The NVQ is 6 visits on site, which is exactly the same as in college.
For me there is no different, except that the college is all a bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there, and they have had it all free.
Training centres are all people who actually want to be there and have paid for their course so there is about 30 per cent more training time.
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REDSAW
left it a little late havnt we?.
join the viper site about £49, you can then have free access to print of a myriad of ccn1 q's and books.
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tamz
I'll give you a question and see if you can answer it without looking it up. It is one of the most important things you should know. I'll make the question slightly harder than you will be asked but it reflects what you'll find in the real world more.
Old open flue boiler, 60000btu, fitted in a cupboard next to the back door. What size vents? (all options)
Old open flue boiler, 60000btu, fitted in a cupboard next to the back door. What size vents? (all options)
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fuzzy
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dontknowitall
Great question!! It was easy when I sat the exam because I'd looked in the book that day. Must admit I can't remember but I know the diagram I'm to look at and know which book it's in!
Now, this next part is purely voluntary and I'll try to have a look in my book before I come back here ... so for my interest ...
Hazarding a guess, there was a number of 583?? and you have to have two lots of air going in and one going out, if you see what I mean. If I HAD to put one in tomorrow and had no access to my books I'd be putting two of those 100mm2 vents in.
I'll see how correct I am when I return.
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fuzzy
apprenticeships are day release 8 hours for 36 weeks a year and for 4 years, now you do the maths. Poor advice leads to incorrect decisions, your post is not only incorrect but dangerous for people wnating to train as they need the correct facts
why do you think people must take you on??
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fuzzy
double on bottom than top 20mm and 10cm squared per kw with no adventicious ventilatiom, am i close, then outside is as per normal
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fuzzy
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tamz
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fuzzy
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fuzzy
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jase158
F
fuzzy
4 years of day release, the other 4 on site learning your trade. this is far in excess of any of the fast track courses and much better.
if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture
if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture
J
jase158
Did you not fully read my post
"Now where I agree with everybody is, college / training centres can only teach you so much. The only place you will really learn is in the workplace. If somebody has done 5 years working as a plumber then he will be hundreds better then somebody who went to college for 5 years with no work experience. And the person who worked and went to college 1 day a week will be millions better. You do not learn how to empty water from the pipes before you start work or to empty a toilet before you work on it."
The problem is that there is not enough plumbing apprenticeships out there, so there is 2 choices,
1. quit the job of your dreams, become a bum and live on benefits
2. Fast track courses
where has option 3 gone,
3. work with a plumber for 4 years and go to college 1 day a week
Gone for ever and the fat cats at these training centres are making money from it
J
jase158
Have you actually looked into these courses. have you been and found out the resources that they have got, Have you found out how many hours they work, what they are offering, or are you a hard core Fast Track Hater.
the comments you posted are not "FACT" as you say. The day release is not any more or less then the the college, you do the same amount of work, you do the same amount of subjects, it is governed by the same people with the same online exams. with the same percentage that you have to get right on the tests. The only diffeence is the amount of time you have to learn it in and the fact that you don't do have on site work experience.
But if somebody had experience working as a plumber for 10 years, what is stopping him from doing a fast track course.
I personnaly would never employ anybody who was from a college but i would nearly always employ somebody from a Training centre.
Further to this, There are fast track driving courses, Does this mean that these drivers are un safe.
the comments you posted are not "FACT" as you say. The day release is not any more or less then the the college, you do the same amount of work, you do the same amount of subjects, it is governed by the same people with the same online exams. with the same percentage that you have to get right on the tests. The only diffeence is the amount of time you have to learn it in and the fact that you don't do have on site work experience.
But if somebody had experience working as a plumber for 10 years, what is stopping him from doing a fast track course.
I personnaly would never employ anybody who was from a college but i would nearly always employ somebody from a Training centre.
Further to this, There are fast track driving courses, Does this mean that these drivers are un safe.
i worked on site for 2 weeks, then college for 1 week, for 3 years then a full year on site for my apprenticeship
J
jase158
ive just started up but i will take on an apprentice cheap labour to be honest and you can teach him the way you work and to your standards
J
jase158
SNIPEF pays alot towards the training, and yes as it would be my duty like any employer who must supply ppe
note snipef is in scotland, dont know whos the equivelent in england
note snipef is in scotland, dont know whos the equivelent in england
J
jase158
then no that is why i'd go for a 16 year old apprentice get most payed for via a grant...sadly the fast track thing doesnt look too good on a CV and that is why you'll struggle to get a start, its hard enough for qualified guys to get a job been in the game 20 year
T
tamz
Sorry Fuzzy, was watching a bit telly there.
The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.
If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level
If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed
Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.
The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.
If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level
If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed
Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.
G
Guest123
I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.
J
jase158
Exactly this is what i am saying, Fast track is there to help people who went off the rails at 16, or were unable to do well in life. To turn their life around, Should we turn our backs on people because they did not decide what they wanted to do by the age of 16.
This goes a lot deeper then just this subject, the benefit system is the main problem, should you go to college when on benefits, you do not qualify for benefits as you are not looking for work. The system does not let people better them selves.
If they stopped paying alcaholics and druggies incapacity benefit, and put this money into helping train people then we would all be better off.
I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?
This goes a lot deeper then just this subject, the benefit system is the main problem, should you go to college when on benefits, you do not qualify for benefits as you are not looking for work. The system does not let people better them selves.
If they stopped paying alcaholics and druggies incapacity benefit, and put this money into helping train people then we would all be better off.
I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?
J
jase158
So you are saying that i am not worthy of being a plumber?
Even though i learnt at college for 2 years and only did the NVQ fast track? but simply because i am over 19?
R
REDSAW
J
jase158
Don't Know if you read it properly, but Its About 120-130 days in total on the fast track, Where as the college is 144 or so days.
Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?
K
kirkgas
T
tamz
I have taken on and trained 4 apprentices over the years and when the on i have with me now has served his time i will start another one.
I do it because i want to pass the skills on the way it was passed to me and give some youngster the chance i had. He will also be taught the way i want him to learn. It is like a blank canvas.
I don't do it for the cheap labour as they have all been on tradesmans wages before their time was out and it is not for what i get in training grants (through Snipef) because that is laughable. It used to work out at £1 a day with a final bonus given at the end of about £1800 (it was something like that with the last one) when they were qualified.
Split that over 4 years and it is not a lot of financial incentive. It doesn't even pay for his bacon rolls. They are also enrolled in the plumbing pension scheme (which also costs me).
They have all been 16 and one 17. Sure young lads are daft and loose interest sometimes but you just need to know how to handle them. We have all did daft things when we were young. Youngsters generally have little financial responsibility (bottle of wine at the weekend!) so accept lower wages. Treat them right and they will be loyal to you but when the time is right they will move on and do you proud.
I can't see me ever taking an adult trainee. They had their chance and blew it years ago. They now have families and mortgages to pay and loyalty is not part of their road to riches beliefs. As for working for free. Are you having a laugh? Not a cats hope in hell.
There are apprenticeships out there, always has been just not in the numbers you think there should be. The numbers taken on depend on the workload. At the minute things are not great but there are still some who will be taken on in the summer.
I do it because i want to pass the skills on the way it was passed to me and give some youngster the chance i had. He will also be taught the way i want him to learn. It is like a blank canvas.
I don't do it for the cheap labour as they have all been on tradesmans wages before their time was out and it is not for what i get in training grants (through Snipef) because that is laughable. It used to work out at £1 a day with a final bonus given at the end of about £1800 (it was something like that with the last one) when they were qualified.
Split that over 4 years and it is not a lot of financial incentive. It doesn't even pay for his bacon rolls. They are also enrolled in the plumbing pension scheme (which also costs me).
They have all been 16 and one 17. Sure young lads are daft and loose interest sometimes but you just need to know how to handle them. We have all did daft things when we were young. Youngsters generally have little financial responsibility (bottle of wine at the weekend!) so accept lower wages. Treat them right and they will be loyal to you but when the time is right they will move on and do you proud.
I can't see me ever taking an adult trainee. They had their chance and blew it years ago. They now have families and mortgages to pay and loyalty is not part of their road to riches beliefs. As for working for free. Are you having a laugh? Not a cats hope in hell.
There are apprenticeships out there, always has been just not in the numbers you think there should be. The numbers taken on depend on the workload. At the minute things are not great but there are still some who will be taken on in the summer.
K
kirkgas
the only thing i can see wrong with it is that i use 3412 to convert btu to kw, but it wont change the answer
T
tamz
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R
REDSAW
yes it does!.
there is an element that i am wrong so bare this in mind.
i get 79.211cm2, just as a hint.
T
tamz
R
REDSAW
i am going to re-read your answer then get me book out to check something...
then probably appologise, give me a mo.
thought so;
i was wrong.lol
thinking balanced flue.
so answer is; as you say or
option b,
44cm2 and 88cm2
then probably appologise, give me a mo.
thought so;
i was wrong.lol
thinking balanced flue.
so answer is; as you say or
option b,
44cm2 and 88cm2
Last edited by a moderator:
T
tamz
R
REDSAW
T
tamz
B
Bartdude
That's how I did it.And I think that's the best way for people to enter the trade.
I've not employed an apprentice personally yet,but I've had a few while I was working for a firm,and as Tamz says,I wouldn't employ an older trainee for the same reasons. My decision to take on an apprentice would need me to keep costs down,and young lads will settle for less,and I don't think someone would be happy to work for free for long,no matter how many times I see that written. It's not the way it should be done anyway.
I don't know why people seem to think that plumbing is a free for all where everyone can have a go,it seems that idea developed and the training centres jumped and grabbed it with both hands,some of the training ads are beyond belief,saying 70-100k is on the cards for all.Complete nonsense.
To answer the original question,No,fast tracks aren't good for the industry,the standards have dropped.
D
Dormouse
I did the full time course which states...
ahem...
'Our fast track Get to Gas course is suitable for anyone wishing to embark on a financially rewarding career as a qualified heating engineer. Whether you have no experience at all and want to start from scratch, or have basic plumbing ability you want to develop, our training will equip you with the necessary skills required to undertake gas work on-site.'
D
Dormouse
I think we (career changers) are between a rock & a hard place. We fall into these courses promising all, pay a whopping wedge of hard earned & then we are mocked by the industry for doing so, despite being qualified (albeit without a huge amount of experience). I know fast trackers (mainly gas) who have been trading for years & they are still referred to as fast trackers by the time served guys.
At what point does a fast tracker with all the qualifications & then some with a few years experience under their belt become 'time served' or considered worthy of their career title?
It's a bit village mentality if you ask me, you know, when someone new moves in & after 50 years of living there, they're still referred to as 'the new people'...!
At what point does a fast tracker with all the qualifications & then some with a few years experience under their belt become 'time served' or considered worthy of their career title?
It's a bit village mentality if you ask me, you know, when someone new moves in & after 50 years of living there, they're still referred to as 'the new people'...!
G
Guest123
In answer to your question, a fast tracker or for that matter anyone is considered worthy of their career title, when they can prove that the work that they do is done to a very high standard, efficiently and conscientiously as required by this industry.
I have nothing personal against people who change their career, however I do have an issue with those that compete with me while having no experience and giving the profession a bad name. It takes a lot nowadays for people to get a professional in and not diy it. A botched job by an inexperienced person with little or no experience not only gives the profession a bad name, but puts people off from getting a tradesman in the next time. I have seen a catalogue of basic and costly errors done by people who have completed a course and not gained enough practical experience on the job.
Why do you fast track and not sit a proper apprenticeship? Do you actually believe the 70k plus earnings or are you gullible enough to not have done any research into this before parting with your large course fees?
I'll take on young kids out of school and train them properly and give them a chance of a career and a future. Sadly many fast trackers I suspect are either bored with their career, failed at it, or only want to become a plumber due to what they consider financial gain. I would NOT employ such a person with this criteria and I doubt any employers would either.
F
fuzzy
nothing wrong with career changers, but the posts on here were from people who have done fast tracks and then complained that they didnt know enough whilst defending fast tracks??? i havnt made a judgement just pointed out that you cannot blame the qualification but the people who offer and deliver a fast track get you a sert but you dont know anything (your words not mine) this is a clear contradiction
F
fuzzy
G
Guest123
D
dontknowitall
G
Guest123
Well there's ageism laws against that in this country, and anyway I personally would employ someone that I find the most suitable for the job regardless of age. Sadly most are in it for the quick fix financial gain promised by the training centres.
If you've reached your 30's, 40's or 50's then you've at least gained some training and had/still have a career. School leavers don't have that priviledge and that's my reason for taking on young apprentices to give them a start in life, proper training and a future.
If you've reached your 30's, 40's or 50's then you've at least gained some training and had/still have a career. School leavers don't have that priviledge and that's my reason for taking on young apprentices to give them a start in life, proper training and a future.
H
Hoopey
T
tamz
Doesn't come into it with apprenticeships. The adult apprenticeship scheme was officially closed in 2008.
N
noleaksihope
why is it a disgrace you wrote to 160 plumbers and not 1 would take you on ?
the 'bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there' are proper apprentices , who have a bit of foresight to see earning low wages for 4 years and learning a trade is going to be worth it in the long run. so what they muck around in the class/workshop and have a laugh , it s all part of growing up and serving your time.
was earning £25 a week (+ yad) for my first year , while my mates were on £100-150 as posties , insurance clerks etc. they thought i was a mug working for less than a £1/hr .
give them a choke with a manhole full to the brim of shyte 1st thing on a monday morning and they re soon wishing they were back sorting letters or eyeing up the tidy blond whos just started in the office.
once a 6 monther , always a 6 monther .
i ll take on a young local lad or lassy and pass on the craft and the opportunity to learn a trade properly.
do you do any lead work on these fast track courses ? would be a con and a scam imo if you can call yourself a plumber without being able to work with the material the trades named after.
I am considering never having another apprentice !(hopefully I will get over this) Am now facing an industrial tribuneral for an apprentice who swore at me and then left ! Now claims unfair dissmissal , gets legal aid etc.
You cannot work for free !!!! Its illegal on the employer, you find out all sorts when you are facing court !(our apprentice was paid by the way )
You cannot work for free !!!! Its illegal on the employer, you find out all sorts when you are facing court !(our apprentice was paid by the way )
and rightly so, was in the same year as an adult apprentice he finished end of 3rd and i was still an apprentice in 4th, i was better than him and he was making alot of costly mistakes !
F
fuzzy
F
fuzzy
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