MORE problems with Baxi Bermuda 552!!! Help

[nems1982]

After some of you really kindly helped me last time I thought this would be the best place for some more honest advice.
Following my last thread
[h=2] Undersized Vent For Baxi Bermuda 552[/h]I did as advised and spoke to the relevant companies and after a little pursuasion (and his own investigation...) the letting agent agreed that the company who initially issued the CP12 could come back and reassess the vent and give us a quote for the work which could then be passed onto to the landlord.

The company called yesterday and booked an appointment for this morning. When the engineer arrived he was not the company owner as I was led to believe but another man he invited himself into the house where I was on my own with my 5 month old and one of my twins (teachers strike), he then glanced at the vent and informed me that it was fine, not too small and then made to leave. I then told him about what the BG man had told me and said that I was worried that I was getting conflicting advice. At this point he told me that BG didn't know what they were talking about and that the engineer was just trying it on. I told him that BG had only been called out to fix radiator and so was unlikely he was trying his luck as the insurance policy on the house covers any work. It was at this point that he started to shout at me..... He started to question me about the size and I told him I was too sure of the sizing but was under the impression it had to be 100cm2. He went out to his van to get a book and when he re-emerged he called baxi to check what size vent their largest boiler required. AT NO POINT DID HE ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THE BOILER even though it was right next to him in the sitting room. When he spoke to Baxi they told him the maximum required was 78cm2 (I think) he told me that the vent was more than big enough and that I was being ridiculous. I tried to tell him that I just wanted to make sure my family were safe because we keep being told different things. After another debate involving him shouting at me continuously that there was nothing wrong he stormed out telling me that I am ignorant. I thought it best not to dignify this last comment with a response and I was in fact at this point in floods of tears so unable to say anything either way. Luckily while the engineer had been on the phone to Baxi I had called my dad who happened to arrive just as the engineer was leaving. I was too flustered to really retain any of that information the engineer had provided but luckily my dad did and once apprised of the facts dad measured the vent.......it is too small. The enginner did not look at the external part of the vent which I am told was necessary. The engineer then sat at the end of our road and when again approached by my dad (who is luckily a very reasonable man) the engineer told him that he was waiting to hear from Baxi about what size the boiler is as, if it is the biggest sort of boiler they do, the vent was too small.

I'm sorry this has been such a long read but I really am at the end of my tether with all of this. The landlord is still refusing to do the work and the letting agent is sending round someone else from the same company to give us a quote. So far this company have issued an illegal CP12 (not filled in properly) and sent round mr nasty. I'm not a fussy or rude person I just want my family to be safe. My husband and I are now discussing moving again (been here a month) which we will have to do if necessary but I really don't want to have to disrupt the children again.

Please help.

Naomi xx

 

[Barry98]

sounds like your having a rought time there naomi , can you sugest to the letting agent and your landlord you will get an independant gas safe enginner in to do the work ? and knock it off the rent , maybe drop into the converstaion what there legal onligations are

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Bod, that is a good idea but I know the landlord wont go for it because he thinks the CP12 shows that there is no problem but it just hasn't been filled in. We had to replace the shower fittings because he refused to pay £90 to the handyman. It was no real hardship because I'm quite good with things like that but it did leave me £40 out of pocket. He doesn't want to hear about any problems because he doesn't want to pay for them.

Naomi xx

 

[Barry98]

sounds a bit of a wolly tbh , id go as far then and say if they work isnt done your going to go seek legal advice with regards the incomplete cp12. see what happens then or report the gas firm its self they have a responsibility too

 

[jefaz]

Agreed but if the vent is not 90% of the size it should be is this not classified as AR and should be turned off and warning notice filled out!

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Bod, I think that might be our only option at this point. xx

 

[jefaz]

Further more how could this guy not work out himself what size the vent needed to be!?

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Jefaz, we did turn it off to start with but we've had no choice but to put it back on because of the weather. BG man did issue an 'at risk' notice but didn't turn it off and we didn't sign disclaimer.

 

[jefaz]

Also an option of threat is to ring gas safe themselves to report dodgy gas work!! Tht will almost certainly get people to listen! There should be a company/engineer number on the cp12 paperwork!?

 

[nems1982]

Jefaz, he said its not his responsibilty to remember the vent size for all boilers...might have been an idea to have a look into it before he turned up though!
xx

 

[jefaz]

You don't have to remember what vent size each boiler needs! There is a data plate on the boiler which will have a heat input on, add this to the fire heat input (again it will have a plate) -7 then multiply by 5!!
You have the answer he is looking for!!

 

[nems1982]

I feel so stupid but the engineer that came today didn't show his id and I forgot to ask and as he didn't leave a report I have little to go on. But can look into the guy that did the CP12. I feel horrible for doing it.

Naomi xx

 

[jefaz]

Did he ask you to sign saying it was at risk and he needed to isolate the gas suppy? If you refused to sign I think the path is to ring the gas supplier and turn off in the street! If you have turned it back on yourself you may be commiting an offence!! And the boiler shouldn't have passed a cp12 in the first place!!

 

[Barry98]

Jefaz, he said its not his responsibilty to remember the vent size for all boilers...might have been an idea to have a look into it before he turned up though!
xx

if i could play the noise off family fortunes i would


X

 

[jefaz]

If the first guy is from the same company then yes u have info to start with!! It's all very well saying you feel horrible for doing it but if god forbid anything happened to you or your family you would feel alot worse!

 

[nems1982]

I know, thank Jafaz. I think we will have to speak to gas safe about the whole thing. We didn't sign anything to confirm what the BG man deemed unsafe. We haven't got any choice but to use it. The landlord doesn't believe that its serious and has refused to believe that we shouldn't be using it.
with regards to todays engineer he wouldn't look at the boiler. he said he didn't have to he could tell from looking at the heater in front of it that the vent would be fine. Those were his actual words.
***

 

[jefaz]

well what I would do is ring the company and tell them you think the boiler ventilation is too small, add in that if the vent is 89%
or less of what it actually should be then they have left a gas appliance turned on in an AR situation. State that you are ringing gas safe to ask the inspector for your area to come and verify its all correct!
I guarantee that this company will come back out and check it properly cos that doubt will be in his mind!
if they eventually agree and come out and find its no good,ask for official paperwork stating this fact
if they dont come out just ring gas safe and the inspector will come out and he will have the say!
let us know how it goes.............and remember we are the honest ones and are here to help!
good luck!!

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Jafaz. I will keep you posted!

Naomi
xx

 

[stevetheplumber]

if the vent is to small keep a window open if your intending using the appliance

 

[stevetheplumber]

there is no pass or fail with a cp12 you record what you see and may have to act on this ie turn of or cap of issue notices etc

 

[nems1982]

there is no pass or fail with a cp12 you record what you see and may have to act on this ie turn of or cap of issue notices etc

Sorry steve, i think if the CP12 isn't issued then the tenant can't move in, that is if works detailed aren't carried out. As the CP12 hasn't been filled in properly it doesn't make much difference either way for us. Thanks for letting me know though.
Naomi xx

 

[kirkgas]

Sorry steve, i think if the CP12 isn't issued then the tenant can't move in, that is if works detailed aren't carried out. As the CP12 hasn't been filled in properly it doesn't make much difference either way for us. Thanks for letting me know though.
Naomi xx

a new tenant should be issued with a valid CP12 within 28 days of moving in, although the landlord has a care of duty to ensure it is checked BEFORE the tenant moves, as obviously any problems could endanger the tenant

 

[holls1234]

I think you need to get your facts straight. At no point have we been advised of a shower fitting problem (in fact the shower fittings were all replaced in September 2011 just before you moved in and therefore would have been under guarantee) we have not refused to pay £90 for anything like that.

We are in dispute with BG as they have clearly written on their paperwork that the vent is within 90% of the required size which therefore means it that they should not have issued an 'at risk' notice, but a NCS notice instead.

After being told personally by the BG engineer and then the gas safe engineer doing the CP12 that the vent size was not a risk we decided that the work would not be carried out immediately as we had just spent thousands repairing the damage done by the previous tenant.

People should not be commenting without all the facts!!!!

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

is the vent ducted?

 

[nems1982]

I'm not certain if this is the correct place to be discussing this. This thread was started with the view to getting some advice from professionals. If you wish to discuss the matter further you can speak to the agent about obtaining our contact details.

Just to confirm though, the shower fitting was not new as part of the head was missing, it would constantly fall off the wall fitting and was not only dangerous but impossible for an adult to use. We decided to replace the shower fittting as we were informed by the agent that you were unwilling to spend anymore money at the time. We are not responsible for reporting issues to you and suggest you take that up with the agent.

With regards to the issue with the vent it is by your own admittance to small, we have recieved emails from the landlord that say as much. We are now in possession of 3 'at risk' notices 2 issued by the gentleman who did the service for you in october (which we now have a copy of) and 1 other gentleman who also advised as of the 'at risk' notice.

I would like to advise you at this point that though you may have had a discussion with the engineer that issued the CP12, we were here when the inspection was done and at no point did the engineer look at the vent.

I would now advise that you contact us directly to discuss this matter further.

Naomi

 

[nems1982]

is the vent ducted?

How would I be able to tell?

 

[holls1234]

It is ok for you to comment and we are not allowed to defend ourselves? I have spoken to the agent who confirmed that he was going to send out a handyman to have a look at the shower, but you said not to bother and you did it yourselves which cost in the region of £10 and he asked you to send the invoice in and that he would pay it (which he has never received)!!

The service done in October is the paperwork that confirms that the vent is within 90% of the required size which makes it not 'at risk' status!!

Also I have been advised today by the heating company that it was you that was abusive to the gas safe engineer who came out to assess the vent for repair as he didn't back up what you were saying.

If you do not want people to reply to threads you should not have been putting loads of details about them on the internet!!!!

 

[holls1234]

Not as far as I am aware, it isn't ducted

 

[nems1982]

That wasn't actually what I was saying, I feel it more appropriate given that you are our landlord that this is discussed in private.
As I said the details were put on here with the view to gaining so advice.

The handyman did come out to us. His name is Adam and he will have a copy of the job as proof that he did come out to quote the job for the agent. We discussed how much the job would cost. I had already been advised by the agent that you were unwilling to spend any money at the time as a result of the discussion with the agent I asked Adam for some advice about what sort of fitting I should buy after which I spent just under £40 on the new fitting for which I still have the receipt.
I can assure you that I was not abuse to the heating engineer. The engineer did not look at the boiler and had no idea what size or type of boiler he was dealing with therefore unqualified at that point to determine whether the vent was too small or not. We were later told by the agent that the company had admitted the vent was too small and offered you a quote for the work. I did not argue with him, the engineer was affronted because I happened to know more about the situation at that point than he did. Not because I am trained but because I bothered to glean all the information before forming an opinion.

I would like to add that responding to this thread in this way is pointless as since it was first posted we have not only had a carbon moxoide leak as a result of the poor ventilation but we have also been without heating for 2 weeks. Perhaps you would like to address those issues in public as well.

Naomi

 

[holls1234]

The carbon monoxide leak was as a result of a broken valve which has since been replaced, and as advised to yourselves by BG it was not to do with the vent, which as I keep stating is within 90% of the requirement which as mentioned in the regulations brought in during 2008 means it is not necessary for an 'at risk' notice to be issued which is why we are making complaints to British Gas.

We understand your worry after the faulty valve, but nobody can help it if a boiler breaks down and we have put a BG policy into place which covers all gas, electrical and plumbing problems with a 24/7 breakdown line for the tenants convenience.

We have never once told the agent that we weren't willing to pay for any faults/breakdowns that may occur and if you are saying that is what he has said then perhaps you should take it up with him, as he is denying it to us.

We have been told that you are only without heating as you refuse to turn the boiler on. I can understand your worry, but BG confirmed that the ventilation wasn't the problem and as previously mentioned we are making a major complaint to BG as they issued the incorrect documents to you.

If you were worried, perhaps getting an independant gas safe engineer to issue you with a report to confirm your opinion that this should be 'at risk' would have been the best option, then you would have had no opposition at all, we would have had the remedial work done immediately and refunded the cost of your report.

But it is too late now isn't it.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

How would I be able to tell?

Shine a torch down the vent in side or outside. you should not be able to see the floor void, just ducting.

If the vent is venting in to a floor void ie under the house, it needs to be ducted to the vent on the outside of the property

 

[holls1234]

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to get my email address from the agent and I will happily discuss what we have been told and what we have said in response.

 

[holls1234]

Shine a torch down the vent in side or outside. you should not be able to see the floor void, just ducting.

If the vent is venting in to a floor void ie under the house, it needs to be ducted to the vent on the outside of the property

The vent is not through the floor it is through the wall in the room with the boiler.

 

[nems1982]

Neither we nor BG said that the valve was the only issue that is your interpretation. The vent is too small and I understand that is why you are arranging for it to be resized now. If you are still under the impression that there is no problem with the vent then why are you having the work done?

We did not have a problem paying for the shower fitting and doing the work as we believed that we would be staying here for at least the next 2 years and felt it was a small price to pay for maintaining a good relationship with you. That is why I have not submitted the receipt to the agent.

The boiler has been isolated and as such we could not turn it on even if we wanted to. Due to the lack of ventilation it has been deemed at risk and a warning label has been fitted to the gas heater in front of the boiler. You may continue to pursue the complaint to BG however you have 3 experts including an independent company telling you that the vent is too small. Surely for the sake of your tenants safety and to ease their concerns it would have been better to pay the £150 and get the work done.
We felt it was unfair of you to ask us to pay for the work to be done and that is why we instructed the agent back in December to look for a new property for us.
We are very sad that we are having to leave the property, but we have been left with very little choice. The house is not safe in its current state and we have our young children to think of.

 

[nems1982]

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to get my email address from the agent and I will happily discuss what we have been told and what we have said in response.

We were told today that you had responded to my email were told that it would be sent onto us as yet we have had no reply. If you would like to email me your response I think that would be the best place to start.

Naomi

 

[holls1234]

We actually authorised for the work to be done on the Thursday after the valve was replaced, as that was when the agent told us that you didn't want to turn it back on as were still worried. I think that as it is an open flue back boiler that you haven't understood what happens if the valve breaks. On an open flue boiler the C02 fumes are ommitted into the room where the boiler is which is what set off your alarm, unlike a combi boiler which would ommit the fumes outside.

It isn't our interpretation at all it is what BG and the other engineers have said that it is not 'at risk' and falls within the requirement under the new legislation, however to avoid this ridiculous problem of BG issuing incorrect documentation we decided to make it (the very small amount) bigger which we originally felt as we were told it wasn't a risk would only serve to make the room colder.

We would never have let or expected you to pay for any repair to the shower fitting and had we been asked would have authorised it immediately.

We also NEVER asked you to pay for the replacement vent it was the agent that called asking us to give permission for you to do it as he said you wanted to!!

Also, the agent hasn't mentioned that you are still using him to find a property in fact has given the opposite impression and never mentioned that that is what you wanted to do in December. In fact we haven't heard anything since he asked us for permission for you to do the work in November until Monday 20th February after the valve went when we were only told that BG were coming to fix it the next day.

I think that perhaps you are being told 1 thing and we are being told something completely different.

I do not have any contact details for you to discuss this further.

 

[nems1982]

Please see the message I have sent you through this forum.

Naomi

 

[PlumbBobBob]

just to interject here you can pm each other on here just click on the other's user name and click on private message.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

beat me to it lol

 

[mickeyuk]

The baxi 552 is a range rated boiler so you can adjust its settings in kw from [i think dont quot me]11kw 17kw to 21kw have not worked on this boiler for years. 21kw x 5 =105cm2 17kw = 85cm2

 

[huddster]

if you are with bg just ring them up raise a complaint with them and get the vent size confirmed- the size for a 552 is 90cm2 from mi's

and as a side note- an open flue boiler takes the fumes away up the chimney not into the room, it takes combustion air from the room only which is why its important to have a correctly sized vent

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

well having read through this entire thread and commenting as a qualified gas engineer with years of experience
what valve can break on a open flued boiler and emit fumes into the room?
this sounds implausible
secondly this vent sizing debacle should have been sorted long ago and if i was in rented accommodation and i had been issued 3 AR reports gas safe would have been involved long ago,however i deal with tenants on a daily basis there are two sides to every story
thirdly this site is not the place for arguments if there is any doubt in a appliance being safe and contradicting comments have been issued by both independent GSR engineers and BG ring gas safe,but a warning to the letting agent/landlord you will be prosecuted under GUISR IF PROBLEMS ARE FOUND AT THE PROPERTY,and so will the gsr who issued the cp12 so i would advise you get your facts very clear before going down this route

 

[jefaz]

Been off for a while and after coming back on and reading this......wow
I am however of the opinion of what valve can break?
im interested to find that out?

 

[Reltub]

Ive also just read through this thread and can't actually believe all this hassle has been caused by what im guessing is a slightly undersized vent. The reg's on the classification of vent sizes have recently changed, but IMO the system has obviously been like this for many years with no problems and is only being raised now because of the changes in regs. This job to make it bigger would take no time at all wither chop it out so you can fit a 100 cm2 vent cover and sleeve or re core and install a vent into that 30 mins if that through most bricks. £150 seems a bit excessive.

Also dont see what valve can break to cause a co leak, even if there is poor flame picture due to lack of ventilation ( which i highly doubt ) the flue should be doing its job and this is the most important safety aspect.

Seems like a hell of alot of stress for a 30min job tbh and any1 can do it, get the landlord round with his hammer and chisel - job done.

 

[Whn1]

Brilliant read though. Bravo

 

[stevetheplumber]

Thanks Jefaz, we did turn it off to start with but we've had no choice but to put it back on because of the weather. BG man did issue an 'at risk' notice but didn't turn it off and we didn't sign disclaimer.

having read this thread i cant decide if were dealing with the tennant or landlord from hell but the quote above did make me wonder about the logic behind the decision to turn it on when you seem convinced it is dangerous given a choice of being cold or dieing id reach for a sweat shirt every time

 

[nems1982]

Its kind of besides the point now guys. We've moved. Please try not to discourage other people from seeking help in the future by questioning their motives, neither the landlord or we as tenants wanted to be in this situation, both parties felt they were right and couldn't understand why the other couldn't see that. The facts in this case are we wanted the vent to be resized because we were told it was too small, the landlord felt it was unnecessary as it was safe when they had been living there. Both parties believed they were right. The situation changed when we had a Carbon monoxide leak. Since we moved I believe the landlord has taken advice from another engineer the result of which I can't tell you as I said we are no longer living there.
What matters is the situation will be resolved either way before another tenant moves in.

Please don't make light of this situation, there was no need to try and determine who was the bad guy. This thread was created so that I could get some advice from the professionals, I'm happy to say many of you very kind people have been great and offered some brilliant advice. Thank you, and in the nicest possible way I hope we don't have to speak again in the near future. Naomi xx