MORE problems with Baxi Bermuda 552!!! Help

[nems1982]

After some of you really kindly helped me last time I thought this would be the best place for some more honest advice.
Following my last thread
[h=2] Undersized Vent For Baxi Bermuda 552[/h]I did as advised and spoke to the relevant companies and after a little pursuasion (and his own investigation...) the letting agent agreed that the company who initially issued the CP12 could come back and reassess the vent and give us a quote for the work which could then be passed onto to the landlord.

The company called yesterday and booked an appointment for this morning. When the engineer arrived he was not the company owner as I was led to believe but another man he invited himself into the house where I was on my own with my 5 month old and one of my twins (teachers strike), he then glanced at the vent and informed me that it was fine, not too small and then made to leave. I then told him about what the BG man had told me and said that I was worried that I was getting conflicting advice. At this point he told me that BG didn't know what they were talking about and that the engineer was just trying it on. I told him that BG had only been called out to fix radiator and so was unlikely he was trying his luck as the insurance policy on the house covers any work. It was at this point that he started to shout at me..... He started to question me about the size and I told him I was too sure of the sizing but was under the impression it had to be 100cm2. He went out to his van to get a book and when he re-emerged he called baxi to check what size vent their largest boiler required. AT NO POINT DID HE ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THE BOILER even though it was right next to him in the sitting room. When he spoke to Baxi they told him the maximum required was 78cm2 (I think) he told me that the vent was more than big enough and that I was being ridiculous. I tried to tell him that I just wanted to make sure my family were safe because we keep being told different things. After another debate involving him shouting at me continuously that there was nothing wrong he stormed out telling me that I am ignorant. I thought it best not to dignify this last comment with a response and I was in fact at this point in floods of tears so unable to say anything either way. Luckily while the engineer had been on the phone to Baxi I had called my dad who happened to arrive just as the engineer was leaving. I was too flustered to really retain any of that information the engineer had provided but luckily my dad did and once apprised of the facts dad measured the vent.......it is too small. The enginner did not look at the external part of the vent which I am told was necessary. The engineer then sat at the end of our road and when again approached by my dad (who is luckily a very reasonable man) the engineer told him that he was waiting to hear from Baxi about what size the boiler is as, if it is the biggest sort of boiler they do, the vent was too small.

I'm sorry this has been such a long read but I really am at the end of my tether with all of this. The landlord is still refusing to do the work and the letting agent is sending round someone else from the same company to give us a quote. So far this company have issued an illegal CP12 (not filled in properly) and sent round mr nasty. I'm not a fussy or rude person I just want my family to be safe. My husband and I are now discussing moving again (been here a month) which we will have to do if necessary but I really don't want to have to disrupt the children again.

Please help.

Naomi xx

 

[Barry98]

sounds like your having a rought time there naomi , can you sugest to the letting agent and your landlord you will get an independant gas safe enginner in to do the work ? and knock it off the rent , maybe drop into the converstaion what there legal onligations are

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Bod, that is a good idea but I know the landlord wont go for it because he thinks the CP12 shows that there is no problem but it just hasn't been filled in. We had to replace the shower fittings because he refused to pay £90 to the handyman. It was no real hardship because I'm quite good with things like that but it did leave me £40 out of pocket. He doesn't want to hear about any problems because he doesn't want to pay for them.

Naomi xx

 

[Barry98]

sounds a bit of a wolly tbh , id go as far then and say if they work isnt done your going to go seek legal advice with regards the incomplete cp12. see what happens then or report the gas firm its self they have a responsibility too

 

[jefaz]

Agreed but if the vent is not 90% of the size it should be is this not classified as AR and should be turned off and warning notice filled out!

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Bod, I think that might be our only option at this point. xx

 

[jefaz]

Further more how could this guy not work out himself what size the vent needed to be!?

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Jefaz, we did turn it off to start with but we've had no choice but to put it back on because of the weather. BG man did issue an 'at risk' notice but didn't turn it off and we didn't sign disclaimer.

 

[jefaz]

Also an option of threat is to ring gas safe themselves to report dodgy gas work!! Tht will almost certainly get people to listen! There should be a company/engineer number on the cp12 paperwork!?

 

[nems1982]

Jefaz, he said its not his responsibilty to remember the vent size for all boilers...might have been an idea to have a look into it before he turned up though!
xx

 

[jefaz]

You don't have to remember what vent size each boiler needs! There is a data plate on the boiler which will have a heat input on, add this to the fire heat input (again it will have a plate) -7 then multiply by 5!!
You have the answer he is looking for!!

 

[nems1982]

I feel so stupid but the engineer that came today didn't show his id and I forgot to ask and as he didn't leave a report I have little to go on. But can look into the guy that did the CP12. I feel horrible for doing it.

Naomi xx

 

[jefaz]

Did he ask you to sign saying it was at risk and he needed to isolate the gas suppy? If you refused to sign I think the path is to ring the gas supplier and turn off in the street! If you have turned it back on yourself you may be commiting an offence!! And the boiler shouldn't have passed a cp12 in the first place!!

 

[Barry98]

Jefaz, he said its not his responsibilty to remember the vent size for all boilers...might have been an idea to have a look into it before he turned up though!
xx

if i could play the noise off family fortunes i would


X

 

[jefaz]

If the first guy is from the same company then yes u have info to start with!! It's all very well saying you feel horrible for doing it but if god forbid anything happened to you or your family you would feel alot worse!

 

[nems1982]

I know, thank Jafaz. I think we will have to speak to gas safe about the whole thing. We didn't sign anything to confirm what the BG man deemed unsafe. We haven't got any choice but to use it. The landlord doesn't believe that its serious and has refused to believe that we shouldn't be using it.
with regards to todays engineer he wouldn't look at the boiler. he said he didn't have to he could tell from looking at the heater in front of it that the vent would be fine. Those were his actual words.
***

 

[jefaz]

well what I would do is ring the company and tell them you think the boiler ventilation is too small, add in that if the vent is 89%
or less of what it actually should be then they have left a gas appliance turned on in an AR situation. State that you are ringing gas safe to ask the inspector for your area to come and verify its all correct!
I guarantee that this company will come back out and check it properly cos that doubt will be in his mind!
if they eventually agree and come out and find its no good,ask for official paperwork stating this fact
if they dont come out just ring gas safe and the inspector will come out and he will have the say!
let us know how it goes.............and remember we are the honest ones and are here to help!
good luck!!

 

[nems1982]

Thanks Jafaz. I will keep you posted!

Naomi
xx

 

[stevetheplumber]

if the vent is to small keep a window open if your intending using the appliance

 

[stevetheplumber]

there is no pass or fail with a cp12 you record what you see and may have to act on this ie turn of or cap of issue notices etc

 

[nems1982]

there is no pass or fail with a cp12 you record what you see and may have to act on this ie turn of or cap of issue notices etc

Sorry steve, i think if the CP12 isn't issued then the tenant can't move in, that is if works detailed aren't carried out. As the CP12 hasn't been filled in properly it doesn't make much difference either way for us. Thanks for letting me know though.
Naomi xx

 

[kirkgas]

Sorry steve, i think if the CP12 isn't issued then the tenant can't move in, that is if works detailed aren't carried out. As the CP12 hasn't been filled in properly it doesn't make much difference either way for us. Thanks for letting me know though.
Naomi xx

a new tenant should be issued with a valid CP12 within 28 days of moving in, although the landlord has a care of duty to ensure it is checked BEFORE the tenant moves, as obviously any problems could endanger the tenant

 

[holls1234]

I think you need to get your facts straight. At no point have we been advised of a shower fitting problem (in fact the shower fittings were all replaced in September 2011 just before you moved in and therefore would have been under guarantee) we have not refused to pay £90 for anything like that.

We are in dispute with BG as they have clearly written on their paperwork that the vent is within 90% of the required size which therefore means it that they should not have issued an 'at risk' notice, but a NCS notice instead.

After being told personally by the BG engineer and then the gas safe engineer doing the CP12 that the vent size was not a risk we decided that the work would not be carried out immediately as we had just spent thousands repairing the damage done by the previous tenant.

People should not be commenting without all the facts!!!!

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

is the vent ducted?

 

[nems1982]

I'm not certain if this is the correct place to be discussing this. This thread was started with the view to getting some advice from professionals. If you wish to discuss the matter further you can speak to the agent about obtaining our contact details.

Just to confirm though, the shower fitting was not new as part of the head was missing, it would constantly fall off the wall fitting and was not only dangerous but impossible for an adult to use. We decided to replace the shower fittting as we were informed by the agent that you were unwilling to spend anymore money at the time. We are not responsible for reporting issues to you and suggest you take that up with the agent.

With regards to the issue with the vent it is by your own admittance to small, we have recieved emails from the landlord that say as much. We are now in possession of 3 'at risk' notices 2 issued by the gentleman who did the service for you in october (which we now have a copy of) and 1 other gentleman who also advised as of the 'at risk' notice.

I would like to advise you at this point that though you may have had a discussion with the engineer that issued the CP12, we were here when the inspection was done and at no point did the engineer look at the vent.

I would now advise that you contact us directly to discuss this matter further.

Naomi

 

[nems1982]

is the vent ducted?

How would I be able to tell?

 

[holls1234]

It is ok for you to comment and we are not allowed to defend ourselves? I have spoken to the agent who confirmed that he was going to send out a handyman to have a look at the shower, but you said not to bother and you did it yourselves which cost in the region of £10 and he asked you to send the invoice in and that he would pay it (which he has never received)!!

The service done in October is the paperwork that confirms that the vent is within 90% of the required size which makes it not 'at risk' status!!

Also I have been advised today by the heating company that it was you that was abusive to the gas safe engineer who came out to assess the vent for repair as he didn't back up what you were saying.

If you do not want people to reply to threads you should not have been putting loads of details about them on the internet!!!!

 

[holls1234]

Not as far as I am aware, it isn't ducted

 

[nems1982]

That wasn't actually what I was saying, I feel it more appropriate given that you are our landlord that this is discussed in private.
As I said the details were put on here with the view to gaining so advice.

The handyman did come out to us. His name is Adam and he will have a copy of the job as proof that he did come out to quote the job for the agent. We discussed how much the job would cost. I had already been advised by the agent that you were unwilling to spend any money at the time as a result of the discussion with the agent I asked Adam for some advice about what sort of fitting I should buy after which I spent just under £40 on the new fitting for which I still have the receipt.
I can assure you that I was not abuse to the heating engineer. The engineer did not look at the boiler and had no idea what size or type of boiler he was dealing with therefore unqualified at that point to determine whether the vent was too small or not. We were later told by the agent that the company had admitted the vent was too small and offered you a quote for the work. I did not argue with him, the engineer was affronted because I happened to know more about the situation at that point than he did. Not because I am trained but because I bothered to glean all the information before forming an opinion.

I would like to add that responding to this thread in this way is pointless as since it was first posted we have not only had a carbon moxoide leak as a result of the poor ventilation but we have also been without heating for 2 weeks. Perhaps you would like to address those issues in public as well.

Naomi

 

[holls1234]

The carbon monoxide leak was as a result of a broken valve which has since been replaced, and as advised to yourselves by BG it was not to do with the vent, which as I keep stating is within 90% of the requirement which as mentioned in the regulations brought in during 2008 means it is not necessary for an 'at risk' notice to be issued which is why we are making complaints to British Gas.

We understand your worry after the faulty valve, but nobody can help it if a boiler breaks down and we have put a BG policy into place which covers all gas, electrical and plumbing problems with a 24/7 breakdown line for the tenants convenience.

We have never once told the agent that we weren't willing to pay for any faults/breakdowns that may occur and if you are saying that is what he has said then perhaps you should take it up with him, as he is denying it to us.

We have been told that you are only without heating as you refuse to turn the boiler on. I can understand your worry, but BG confirmed that the ventilation wasn't the problem and as previously mentioned we are making a major complaint to BG as they issued the incorrect documents to you.

If you were worried, perhaps getting an independant gas safe engineer to issue you with a report to confirm your opinion that this should be 'at risk' would have been the best option, then you would have had no opposition at all, we would have had the remedial work done immediately and refunded the cost of your report.

But it is too late now isn't it.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

How would I be able to tell?

Shine a torch down the vent in side or outside. you should not be able to see the floor void, just ducting.

If the vent is venting in to a floor void ie under the house, it needs to be ducted to the vent on the outside of the property

 

[holls1234]

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to get my email address from the agent and I will happily discuss what we have been told and what we have said in response.

 

[holls1234]

Shine a torch down the vent in side or outside. you should not be able to see the floor void, just ducting.

If the vent is venting in to a floor void ie under the house, it needs to be ducted to the vent on the outside of the property

The vent is not through the floor it is through the wall in the room with the boiler.

 

[nems1982]

Neither we nor BG said that the valve was the only issue that is your interpretation. The vent is too small and I understand that is why you are arranging for it to be resized now. If you are still under the impression that there is no problem with the vent then why are you having the work done?

We did not have a problem paying for the shower fitting and doing the work as we believed that we would be staying here for at least the next 2 years and felt it was a small price to pay for maintaining a good relationship with you. That is why I have not submitted the receipt to the agent.

The boiler has been isolated and as such we could not turn it on even if we wanted to. Due to the lack of ventilation it has been deemed at risk and a warning label has been fitted to the gas heater in front of the boiler. You may continue to pursue the complaint to BG however you have 3 experts including an independent company telling you that the vent is too small. Surely for the sake of your tenants safety and to ease their concerns it would have been better to pay the £150 and get the work done.
We felt it was unfair of you to ask us to pay for the work to be done and that is why we instructed the agent back in December to look for a new property for us.
We are very sad that we are having to leave the property, but we have been left with very little choice. The house is not safe in its current state and we have our young children to think of.

 

[nems1982]

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to get my email address from the agent and I will happily discuss what we have been told and what we have said in response.

We were told today that you had responded to my email were told that it would be sent onto us as yet we have had no reply. If you would like to email me your response I think that would be the best place to start.

Naomi