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A
Aire
Copper All the time. Plastic has it's uses but really most decent plumbers will only use it when they have no choice.
The O-ring is EDPM and will last for ever as long as it never gets any form of grease (except silicone grease) on it. Given the brutality of life in the field and the various factors involved, I have my doubts on how long both the O-rings, and the fittings, will last.
That said, if using a bit of polybutylene means I don't have to tear up a tiled floor, for instance, I will use it. As Craig says, plastic has its uses. And let's not forget that running a new underground supply in copper is now very rare.
That said, if using a bit of polybutylene means I don't have to tear up a tiled floor, for instance, I will use it. As Craig says, plastic has its uses. And let's not forget that running a new underground supply in copper is now very rare.
Copper.
But same as Craig. Plastic has its uses, but it's very rare I use it.
But same as Craig. Plastic has its uses, but it's very rare I use it.
Plastic does have the advantage that in some circumstances it can be better than copper because no possibility of dissimilar metal or electrolytic corrosion. If I had to repair between two sections of lead, for example, I would have to use plastic, as using copper before lead is not allowed.
There are also times when the fact that it can be flexed after installation allow you to do things that would otherwise be impossible.
In normal circumstances, copper.
There are also times when the fact that it can be flexed after installation allow you to do things that would otherwise be impossible.
In normal circumstances, copper.
I was asking because you said ”why?” to someone that said it had its uses. It seemed a leading question
Also the main problem with plastic is people think they can just throw it in. Care needs to be taken for insertion depths and pressure testing guidelines.
AMGasServices
Gas Engineer
Copper with minimal use of fitting debured and bent to perfection.
A
Aire
Plastic is not as good as copper if the little furry critters are around
People cannot be bothered to search the old posts and see what comments were made. Or they have and are not happy with the answers.
Let's see how the quality of copper is after we crash out of the EU
- May 23, 2015
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Copper but starting to use a bit more mlcp these days
Easier to snake around the sparkys
Easier to snake around the sparkys
Any friends of the US is no friend of China at the moment.
True. But I honestly cannot see them turning us down.
A
Aire
Out of curiosity, is that pipe suitable for standard hep/JG push fit fittings? It could be quite easy to mistake it for standard pushfit if you only took a small section of board up and only saw the pipe, not the fittings.
- May 23, 2015
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A
Aire
I see. Is it semi rigid pipe? Looking at the pic, your pipe tails don't seem to be curling over as standard PF would. I haven't came across the stuff before.
- May 23, 2015
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The easiest way I can discribe it it’s like soft copper can bend by hand etc
A
Aire
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S
Sharp Point
Nope, people realised that, as soon as plastic made its debut.
A
Aire
- May 23, 2015
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Manual tools arnt that expensive powered tools arnt that bad around 1.2k or 1.4 with both u and m profiles
And not in the uk yet
A
Aire
Not that bad at 1.2k? 😱. You must be one of those rich plumbers I keep hearing about 😀
- May 23, 2015
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DGT plumbing
Gas Engineer
hate barrier pipe {jg/hep/polypipe etc etc} with an absolute passion! , the only pushfit system that i like is pegler yorkshire's tectite, its a MLCP pipe so it can be bent by hand and stays in that position and doesnt expand anywhere near as much in length as plastic does , comes in 15/22 and uses double sealed liners with stainless 316 fittings..
Copper here too, not only is it a superior material for this usage, I also find soldering ever so therapeutic (people normally look at me like I'm a freak when I say this). Its ever so satisfying looking at shiny, neatly soldered, tidy new pipework!
Buteline offer a 25 year warranty on the plastic pipework. It has no O-rings and is press fitted.
Their rep said they will be upping this to 50 years soon.
Gerberit offer a 1 year guarantee on their Mapress copper press fittings.
How long a guarantee do you offer on your hand soldered copper pipes?
If you want to offer a manufacturers backed warranty on your installation, like you do with boilers, the answer seems simple.
Install plastic
[lights fuse and retreats to a safe distance]
Their rep said they will be upping this to 50 years soon.
Gerberit offer a 1 year guarantee on their Mapress copper press fittings.
How long a guarantee do you offer on your hand soldered copper pipes?
If you want to offer a manufacturers backed warranty on your installation, like you do with boilers, the answer seems simple.
Install plastic
[lights fuse and retreats to a safe distance]
- May 23, 2015
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I’m DIY of 40 yrs experience. I recently did a re plumb job for daughter. By pass leaking underfloor pipe (2 litres a minute). The job took far more time than myself and brother-in-law estimated. Like 6 times as long. Very awkward access, under bedroom floors and in tiny loft etc. Waving a blow torch in restricted space not easy or quick. Had it been easy to get at we could have done it in a fraction of the time. Plastic would have made it much easier ... long pipe runs, gentle curves over rafters.
My costing for MATERIALS, Screwfix prices. Copper and plastic pipe .. not much in it. Copper and plastic joints ... copper wins Easily. Fitting. Plastic is so quick, less joints. Now I prefer copper but I had to use one plastic bend in an inaccessible place on copper pipe. Amazingly easy. See photo at bottom.
My experience of copper is that is sometimes doesn’t last as long as you anticipate. I had two pin hole leaks in 30 years in copper cold water feed to trad boiler, cast iron boiler , not combi, feed was from expansion tank in loft and flow down pipe must have been virtually non existent ... just water expansion. But might have been bad pipe?
So I would say a proper job with longest life would be copper. fittings look better. I suspect quotes for a plastic system would be cheaper as there must be less labour. In new house builds what do they use? In top end house builds what would be specified, reguardless of cost?
At the end is photo op plastic fitting I added in inaccessible place to join 2 copper pipes. I had to cut away wood to give space to fit it. I haven’t forgot to insert the other pipe! Oh yes. Some plumbers don’t clean flux off copper ... and it corrodes. I believe British Gas had problems with corroding copper pipes and did a lot of research on what fluxes not to use.
Then was a plumber friend who had copper oil line, passing thru wall, corroded through in weeks. He had no idea why.
So Copper can give a Proper job, more expensive, can be longer lasting, rodent proof. Visually less intrusive and you can see some beautiful curves from skilled pipe benders. Polishes up nicely ... I once worked as a loo attendant after leaving school, and during Uni hols. Polished the copper urinal pipes every day.
Plastic job, likely to cost less as less labour intensive and less skill needed.
My costing for MATERIALS, Screwfix prices. Copper and plastic pipe .. not much in it. Copper and plastic joints ... copper wins Easily. Fitting. Plastic is so quick, less joints. Now I prefer copper but I had to use one plastic bend in an inaccessible place on copper pipe. Amazingly easy. See photo at bottom.
My experience of copper is that is sometimes doesn’t last as long as you anticipate. I had two pin hole leaks in 30 years in copper cold water feed to trad boiler, cast iron boiler , not combi, feed was from expansion tank in loft and flow down pipe must have been virtually non existent ... just water expansion. But might have been bad pipe?
So I would say a proper job with longest life would be copper. fittings look better. I suspect quotes for a plastic system would be cheaper as there must be less labour. In new house builds what do they use? In top end house builds what would be specified, reguardless of cost?
At the end is photo op plastic fitting I added in inaccessible place to join 2 copper pipes. I had to cut away wood to give space to fit it. I haven’t forgot to insert the other pipe! Oh yes. Some plumbers don’t clean flux off copper ... and it corrodes. I believe British Gas had problems with corroding copper pipes and did a lot of research on what fluxes not to use.
Then was a plumber friend who had copper oil line, passing thru wall, corroded through in weeks. He had no idea why.
So Copper can give a Proper job, more expensive, can be longer lasting, rodent proof. Visually less intrusive and you can see some beautiful curves from skilled pipe benders. Polishes up nicely ... I once worked as a loo attendant after leaving school, and during Uni hols. Polished the copper urinal pipes every day.
Plastic job, likely to cost less as less labour intensive and less skill needed.
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The biggest problem with plastic fittings is that they are affected when exposed to UV light and should be covered and protected from sunlight. They shouldn't be used externally for outside taps for example. Many times I've also seen older plastic fittings having turned brown and become brittle, which I assume is due to exposure to hot water and UV light. In saying that I'd rather use a plastic pushfit fitting on plastic pipe than a compression fitting. The one and only blow off I've had with plastic pipe was a compression fitting parting company with it.
Those 2 pipes with soldered elbows (not saying you installed them) should not have been done that way. No need to solder in awkward places if you can bend the pipe and either fit from above or below. Can be joined with connector further out from eaves if needed.
Yes ... those were old pipes I was by passing. The old pipes were threaded through holes in RSJ. And were totally inaccessible. The installation of pipes can only have been done before the building was completed .... nightmare to find the routes. I had to use a plastic coupler as there was no space downstairs to get a reasonable length of pipe bent pipe through. And no space in corner. .the new downstairs pipe had to run up in a 5 cm gap between kitchen cabinet and wall.
Maybe a bit of a bump... but a very interesting read about peoples opinions on MLCP. As suppliers of MLCP I can personally say that there is an increase of plumbers now using MLCP due to the flexability of the pipe, the ease of installation and also the warranty that is offered by suppliers.
@ShaunCorbs I think I recognise them fittings😉
@ShaunCorbs I think I recognise them fittings😉
- May 23, 2015
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Very good manufacturer is tweetop (only because I got a very good price)
I think the increase is down to people finding out plastic isn’t that good / reliable (pushfit)
And they want to use copper but with the new types of joists you can’t notch so you have to thread the pipes through
And easy bending and it stays where you bent it
I think the increase is down to people finding out plastic isn’t that good / reliable (pushfit)
And they want to use copper but with the new types of joists you can’t notch so you have to thread the pipes through
And easy bending and it stays where you bent it
That's because of misuse and people not following or reading the manufacturers instructions for correct installation. I've never had a leak with Speedfit in years, had one with the new Hep20 which was a faulty valve. I've seen plenty of failures by people not using inserts, mixing and matching inserts and pipe from different manufacturers and using brass olives instead of copper on plastic pipe. Plastic gets a bad name because of numpties ineptitude to learn how to use it properly.
- May 23, 2015
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Most of the work I do is in older properties and services have to be fed through drilled joists. Unless pipes are notched or lots of couplings are used, then copper isn't possible. Above floor level or on show, I'll use copper with the press fit kit.
- May 23, 2015
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Says who? Not in our regs up here. Notched joists have a better chance of a nail going through them from a floorboard or a carpet.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with plastic systems if installed properly.and I'm old skool and being doing this since 1982.
Modern copper isn't a patch on what it once was What we use now is almost thin wall copper depending on the manufacturer.
Why not use plastic if it makes the job easier and quicker and within budget.
There's nothing super special about using copper only these days. Been there and moved on to embrace modern methods.
I laugh at all you copper only 'experts' using a flexible hose to connect to taps. The amount of failed flexis I've seen could fill a van.
W
Welder
Interesting perspective.
Not quite sure I've seen in any MIs the fact that so called barrier pipe is gas permeable and can utimately be the cause of early failure of heating system? The 'get out' is that the MIs quote an appropriate British Standard so legally it is up to every user to fully investigate each and every potential application under every possible circumstance. Hmmm.
I also find it somewhat, well dishonest really, to hide that one cannot connect major brands of plastic to copper if there is a chance of flux being present because it causes failures.
Once again, that information is hidden deep in MIs (which, btw, are never given out with the product).
Being morally corrupt, but legally 'correct' is still, in my book, 'dishonest'. You may feel different.
I still use all copper and all solder joints and I don’t use flexis except those that are part of monobloc mixer taps or shower pumps obviously.
I don’t do site work, so choice of materials is ultimately mine.
The copper pipe is light walled no doubt, but is generally same as was made for last 40 years, so proving to be excellent on heating systems.
I don’t do site work, so choice of materials is ultimately mine.
The copper pipe is light walled no doubt, but is generally same as was made for last 40 years, so proving to be excellent on heating systems.
I rarely solder now even though I'm good at it because of the risks to property. There are other alternatives nowadays.
Solder fittings can fail too. I was at one a few weeks ago that parted in my hand because it wasn't soldered properly. My other post a few weeks ago was about pin holes in pipe caused by a careless idiot leaving flux on the pipe.
Installation of any pipe system whether copper or plastic is only as good as the installer. Using copper only is fine if that's your choice, but it doesn't make you any more skilled than the next guy or Super plumber.
I prefer to use whatever system is best for the job.
Solder fittings can fail too. I was at one a few weeks ago that parted in my hand because it wasn't soldered properly. My other post a few weeks ago was about pin holes in pipe caused by a careless idiot leaving flux on the pipe.
Installation of any pipe system whether copper or plastic is only as good as the installer. Using copper only is fine if that's your choice, but it doesn't make you any more skilled than the next guy or Super plumber.
I prefer to use whatever system is best for the job.
You don't see hardly any copper in new builds. Plastic has less friction and a better flow through it than copper as the wall pipe wall of plastic being smooth
- May 23, 2015
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Naa it’s down to speed and no point in stealing the scrap
Plastic doesn’t have better flow than copper actually it’s worse
Remember though,
Not all plumbers who use plastic push fit are cowboys,
but all cowboys use plastic push fit.
😉
I installed a new kitchen deck mixer today, to replace a pair of kitchen pillar taps.
Old work was done using 2 flexis from the taps and 2 ballofix isos. Taps were rotating and flexis lethal looking and rusted.
I installed full flow isos and then machine bent 2 copper pipes for offsets, which took me only about a minute each.
Not the hardest of a job, but definitely more skilful than using flexis and push fit.
Not all plumbers who use plastic push fit are cowboys,
but all cowboys use plastic push fit.
😉
I installed a new kitchen deck mixer today, to replace a pair of kitchen pillar taps.
Old work was done using 2 flexis from the taps and 2 ballofix isos. Taps were rotating and flexis lethal looking and rusted.
I installed full flow isos and then machine bent 2 copper pipes for offsets, which took me only about a minute each.
Not the hardest of a job, but definitely more skilful than using flexis and push fit.
Plastic pipe is thicker walled, so much smaller bore.
Sometimes too many push fit bends also used on plastic, due to it being not suitable for fairly tight bends like machine bent copper.
Copper for preference and neatness.
When I worked for local authorities they insisted on copper for all water systems in old folks homes, no plastic allowed. I believe this is down to copper being better at killing off bacteria which could grow in plastic pipework.
Another plus for copper is being able to easily connect to pipes up to 100 years old. With all the different plastic pipe specs that have been around will we be able to join on to them in 50 years?
When I worked for local authorities they insisted on copper for all water systems in old folks homes, no plastic allowed. I believe this is down to copper being better at killing off bacteria which could grow in plastic pipework.
Another plus for copper is being able to easily connect to pipes up to 100 years old. With all the different plastic pipe specs that have been around will we be able to join on to them in 50 years?
I actually have a lot of faith in the JG Speedfit fittings. In our workshop I sometimes have the same fittings on the pressure tester all year, I have a 22 x 22 x 15 tee on there with one branch blanked off so I can switch it up and test both 15mm and 22mm pipework connections. This fitting is mounted and demounted, pressurised and depressurised, flexed and strained and generally abused numerous times a day, all year and they have never leaked or failed on me yet.
I'd trust them undisturbed in a live system without hesitation.
With all that said I do enjoy working with copper a lot more and there is certainly more of a craft to copper work than plastic pushfit but as so many others say, both have their place in our systems.
Horses for corses surely.
If it’s a buy to let flat in Basra (or Grimsby) it makes good sense not to fill it with something the locals will rip out and sell to buy crack.
Plastics also a lot less reactive than copper so if it’s going to be buried it’s probably a better choice. Especially pipe in pipe.
There are lots of jobs (such as listed buildings) where ripping up half a floor simply may not be an option. Again not a bad choice.
However in most cases copper wins hands down for longevity, stability etc.
I’d never trust plastic on a heating circuit, the pipe itself would be fine I’m sure but heat cycling tends to be bad for o rings/seals etc.
If it’s a buy to let flat in Basra (or Grimsby) it makes good sense not to fill it with something the locals will rip out and sell to buy crack.
Plastics also a lot less reactive than copper so if it’s going to be buried it’s probably a better choice. Especially pipe in pipe.
There are lots of jobs (such as listed buildings) where ripping up half a floor simply may not be an option. Again not a bad choice.
However in most cases copper wins hands down for longevity, stability etc.
I’d never trust plastic on a heating circuit, the pipe itself would be fine I’m sure but heat cycling tends to be bad for o rings/seals etc.
copper all day long for me but I am old school rats eat into pex pipe just hate that pex I have piped houses with GB on heating we have more or less come full circle separate circuits in heating upstairs and down stairs plus hot water I was working on these 3 circuits in the 70s all to do with cost back then
W
Welder
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