POC entering building

[boilerbrigade]

Hi all I'm after a little advice...

Today i ID'd a boiler because the plume was flooding into the building through the open door, not a wisp the whole lot. I only went to move a 1.5m run of gas pipe, that a previous engineer had installed in the wrong place only last week, may I add he did not even turn in the boiler after doing this work let alone do any of 26.9....

was as a condensing ideal icos 15 that had been shoed in buy some clown.

anyway i I fired it up checked it all and when I opened the back door the poc just poured in, flue was 500mm from the door and about 900mm from the floor, was gas tight correct o/p etc etc and ok combustion readings - CO was 18ppm.

Anyway i continued testing the boiler and as the wind changed the plume entry got worse - so I capped the gas. Customer obviously not happy... Then I get a phone call from an engineer, the engineer who fitted the original gas pipe and failed to turn on the boiler explaining about room a co test which I already know about bla bla bla, which I'm not qualified to do what I did know though was that the co leaving the boiler was 18ppm and the whole lot was entering property.

I explained to to the customer that the rules say about 10ppm and rising but I can't do a room co test, I don't have that module on my ticket however it's poring in and I believe it's dangerous.

So I still stand by what I say, the un commissioning engineer agreed this but now customer is saying boiler should have been left on, and they would not open the door.... I explained about saftey and how regardless the door could be opened and explained that a plume kit would solve the problem - what else can I say?

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[boilerbrigade]

Ps is this in the right area for discussion? If not can someone move it and let me know! Thanks

 

[buckley plumb]

you can do a room test for that purpose . I would have thought at 500mm there would be very little co

 

[kris]

We can never control the wind and as long as the terminals within guidelines then ok, (unless pocs are entering property),
You mentioned a module, you just need a seperate probe for testing CO, is the 18ppm CO was that on a combustion test out of the flue, because if it is its then diluted with the air as it leaves the flue and 18 is quite low , ( not low if whole lot going inside but )

 

[kris]

Id return and properly check as someone might be without heating for no reason,

 

[REDSAW]

its not i.d its at best a.r as the door can be shut and no problem the poc's have already mixed with 02 when leaving the flue!!

advise customer and then it is thier choice!!

 

[diamondgas]

How diluted were the poc's that were entering the property? Unless you can prove this installation Immediately Dangerous you're treading on thin ice IMHO 🙂 Could have been nothing but steam.

When did Icos stop being made? About 5yrs maybe more... I'd imagine if this appliance was Immediately Dangerous because of re-entry of poc's then it would have been picked up before now eh?
Mi's reckon 300mm is far enough away from an opening. Always good to err on the side of caution but water vapour does not equal danger and I think you've been a tad zealous personally! I'd certainly not be happy if someone had caused me a call back to an install I'd done as per manufacturers instructions!

 

[buckley plumb]

could always fit this

https://www.heatingspares247.com/boilerflue-accessories/ideal-plume-kit-208178-p-7320.html

 

[boilerbrigade]

I know what your saying about shutting the door but it's an openable door into the property - if the door is left open, even by a burglar and the boiler for whatever reason comes on then all of the poc are gonna pour into the kitchen.

I looked at facts - when the boiler is running, the pocs are entering the property. For the record there is also an air brick 300mm above the flue, leading into the room as well it's one of those installs....

when I updated my acs about 5 months ago I was told that to test room CO and correctly interperate results you require an additional module on your acs cmdda1 or something like that... I have the probes etc.

AR would have still had the same consequences, no usage of boiler, but I'm quite happy I did the right thing, when I asked the customer if he was happy to run a boiler with flue gasses running into the house he said no... I could not guarantee it was safe.

forgive me if I'm wrong - products of combustion entering building is immediately dangerous, in times gone by where a condenser was fitted with no sump trap or seal a condensate leak would be ID - I know this because it happened to me on my inspection!

In 15 years it's not something I have ever come across before but I think with the introduction of condensers and new building regs regarding flue siting then I will see it a lot more often, I'm not one to cut off a boiler for no reason as I said before I could not guarantee it was safe

at least I checked the other fella just connected gas and did one, saying he could not find programmer to turn heating on!

 

[boilerbrigade]

How diluted were the poc's that were entering the property? Unless you can prove this installation Immediately Dangerous you're treading on thin ice IMHO 🙂 Could have been nothing but steam.

When did Icos stop being made? About 5yrs maybe more... I'd imagine if this appliance was Immediately Dangerous because of re-entry of poc's then it would have been picked up before now eh?
Mi's reckon 300mm is far enough away from an opening. Always good to err on the side of caution but water vapour does not equal danger and I think you've been a tad zealous personally! I'd certainly not be happy if someone had caused me a call back to an install I'd done as per manufacturers instructions!

the only engineer who had been to the boiler re run the gas pipe I today replaced, but he did not even turn the boiler on after running new gas pep, could not find programmer apparently...

 

[boilerbrigade]

How diluted were the poc's that were entering the property? Unless you can prove this installation Immediately Dangerous you're treading on thin ice IMHO 🙂 Could have been nothing but steam.

When did Icos stop being made? About 5yrs maybe more... I'd imagine if this appliance was Immediately Dangerous because of re-entry of poc's then it would have been picked up before now eh?
Mi's reckon 300mm is far enough away from an opening. Always good to err on the side of caution but water vapour does not equal danger and I think you've been a tad zealous personally! I'd certainly not be happy if someone had caused me a call back to an install I'd done as per manufacturers instructions!

the boiler was not fitted to MI's, far from it air brick 300above flue, no clearance and pipe work pressed against side of boiler, 100mm of the floor - if I was really picky I could say that the condensate was dripping into a tub under boiler as was not connected to anything....

 

[REDSAW]

could always fit this

https://www.heatingspares247.com/boilerflue-accessories/ideal-plume-kit-208178-p-7320.html

could always carry a couple of these in the van if your not too sure...lol

 

[buckley plumb]

this one was 4 months old

 

[boilerbrigade]

this one was 4 months old

im surprised you can't see the boiler overhanging the door frame!

 

[buckley plumb]

it was close to that mate

 

[diamondgas]

the boiler was not fitted to MI's, far from it air brick 300above flue, no clearance and pipe work pressed against side of boiler, 100mm of the floor - if I was really picky I could say that the condensate was dripping into a tub under boiler as was not connected to anything....

isn't 300mm ok? Ideal mi's state 300mm below,above or alongside an opening is acceptable (P8, Ideal Icos HE12 - 24...!

How long had the boiler been installed?
What measurements were you getting in the poc's at the door? I'm assuming you got 18ppm directly in the flue yeh?

You get to see a lot of dodgy installs that are perfectly safe!

I don't disagree that you believe you did the right thing, however i'd probably turn off the majority of condensing boilers if I was worried about the steam clouds blowing into open windows when the winds in the wrong direction. 🙂

 

[boilerbrigade]

It does your right, I never had that info though as no MI's with boiler and no signal in I pad, I only had the viper book and the logic training book which say 1500 below an air brick, I have never seen another one except the icos saying 300 is ok though. It is what it is, I was not happy to leave it as it was - when my apprentice walked into the kitchen from the dining room looked like a scene from gorillas in the mist!

 

[diamondgas]

was the front door open too? Sounds like you had one heck of a through draught 🙂

 

[AlexGas]

... the logic training book which say 1500 below an air brick, I have never seen another one except the icos saying 300 is ok though.

Natural draught >14-32Kw would be 1500mm. This one has a fan, that’s 300mm.

 

[boilerbrigade]

was the front door open too? Sounds like you had one heck of a through draught 🙂

No and the kitchen was the size of a downstairs toilet! I wish I took a picture!

 

[AlexGas]

Well... on the windy day, stay away from the address! :smile:

 

[diamondgas]

No and the kitchen was the size of a downstairs toilet! I wish I took a picture!

I was once called out by the police to a condensing boiler belching out steam! He thought it was on fire!!! 🙂

 

[boilerbrigade]

Natural draught >14-32Kw would be 1500mm. This one has a fan, that’s 300mm.

Sorry Alex your right, I could not see for all the steam! Point I was making is it was not MI's..

 

[Clint 1979]

I take it the flue had a terminal guard fitted as it was 900mm from the floor? Surely the steam entering the building would be a nuisance, but what if the boiler was to develop a fault? Potentially deadly POC's entering the property through the air brick or the door.......would AR stand up in court or err on the side of caution, ID it and fit a plume kit?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether??
Just so I'm clear if I was to come across this scenario.......

 

[boilerbrigade]

I was once called out by the police to a condensing boiler belching out steam! He thought it was on fire!!! 🙂

Which is fine, as long as it does not enter the building....!

 

[REDSAW]

but what if the boiler was to develop a fault?

then its not immediately dangerous is it?

 

[buckley plumb]

I take it the flue had a terminal guard fitted as it was 900mm from the floor? Surely the steam entering the building would be a nuisance, but what if the boiler was to develop a fault? Potentially deadly POC's entering the property through the air brick or the door.......would AR stand up in court or err on the side of caution, ID it and fit a plume kit?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether??
Just so I'm clear if I was to come across this scenario.......

you could say that about any boiler only300mm away

 

[boilerbrigade]

I take it the flue had a terminal guard fitted as it was 900mm from the floor? Surely the steam entering the building would be a nuisance, but what if the boiler was to develop a fault? Potentially deadly POC's entering the property through the air brick or the door.......would AR stand up in court or err on the side of caution, ID it and fit a plume kit?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether??
Just so I'm clear if I was to come across this scenario.......

i agree, It only needs a plume kit - and because I could not test room co I could not leave it chance.

What's the crack with this co testing module? Bbdda1 or what ever it is called, does anyone know?

 

[AWheating]

the facts are this, on the day you attended poc were entering the building. It does not matter what happed yesterday or tomorrow. You could go back tomorrow and test again and it will be a pass. Tell the customer you can only base your judgement on what is seen when you attend and avise them to solve the problem for good a simple and cheapish plume kit can be installed. If the customer thinks different then they can get somebody else in to take a look.

 

[buckley plumb]

i agree, It only needs a plume kit - and because I could not test room co I could not leave it chance.

What's the crack with this co testing module? Bbdda1 or what ever it is called, does anyone know?

you only need the ticket if report of co or alarm. you can use to determine what you needed to do.

 

[boilerbrigade]

you could say that about any boiler only300mm away

- seriously I have seen many flues 300 from windows etc but were nothing like this it was lower than door handle with an alleyway next to it and everything just went into the house. I'm sure all the manufactures give a distance but if you rang them and told them it was pouring into the property is it ok to leave it they would say no stop being a pecker and ensure poc do not enter the building

 

[diamondgas]

Which is fine, as long as it does not enter the building....!

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

 

[boilerbrigade]

the facts are this, on the day you attended poc were entering the building. It does not matter what happed yesterday or tomorrow. You could go back tomorrow and test again and it will be a pass. Tell the customer you can only base your judgement on what is seen when you attend and avise them to solve the problem for good a simple and cheapish plume kit can be installed. If the customer thinks different then they can get somebody else in to take a look.

which is exactly what I did ! I don't think I did anything wrong just started post to get some idea of what people say when another engineer offers a conflicting, albeit wrong view without seeing the boiler about what's wrong with the boiler. Basically he missed it because he never commissioned boiler after changing gas pipe, he left it on standby as could not find programmer...

 

[buckley plumb]

fit a co alarm as belt and braces

 

[boilerbrigade]

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

That at was a bit of a gag mate that's all but yeah I agree however I was the last engineer at this boiler and I was not happy it was safe - period, so off it went. If someone wants to go and re connect it tomorrow maybe they could pick up my cheque for the pipe I run today??? :tounge_smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Theres so many 'shoulda, woulda coulda' with these types of jobs. All you can go on is the MIs and your own judgement end of. Can you be too safe, who knows

 

[kris]

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

Yeh its just a seperate probe for fga you need and there quite dear ,

 

[diamondgas]

Yeh its just a seperate probe for fga you need and there quite dear ,

The fga sucks in and analyses ... why worry what it sucks through?

 

[Reg Man]

Ambient CO should be tested in accordance with BS 7967. Gas safe also provide guidance on this.

 

[Reg Man]

Advantica also publish a good paper on this situation.

 

[Nvq level 3]

Send the apprentice round to pick the cheque up at least he can have the ear bashing off the customer, make him work for that bread!

 

[GrahamM]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

 

[Ermintrude]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

What? The plume is poc!

 

[diamondgas]

What? The plume is poc!

I'm with GrahamM .... The plume is steam; yes, it's produced by the boiler but it doesn't mean it's dangerous! We would be turning of a huge amount of boilers for plume entry IMHO. My own boiler plume blows up the side of my home and is still visible 6m away at the kitchen door on a cold day!

 

[Ermintrude]

Plume is product of combustion. Stand infront of boiler and breathe it in. The steam contains 9% co2 and 120ppm co . Usually the same as what's coming out if flue port, why would the water vapour separate from the other products as it left the flue and what would happen as it left the flue to render it safe? The water vapour is suspended in the other flue gasses. It's not steam as in a condensing boiler steam is condensed to water droplets .

 

[diamondgas]

the air it vents into will dilute the poc's rapidly I'd imagine.... the condensed water vapour is the visible "plume" as far as I'm aware? The CO and CO2 concentrations will dilute quite rapidly as they exit the flue into atmosphere. The readings you take with the fga are undiluted, straight from the burning process in the flue before it exits.

 

[tamz]

I agree with Diamond gas. The poc's are rapidly diluted as they leave the flue.

If it hadn't been a steamer and you couldn't see the plume leaving the flue would you have given it a second thought?

I altered my own flue for this reason and stuck a vertical on, not because i thought it was dangerous in any way, but because it annoyed me.
My flue was about 3m away from the door coming out at right angle but the prevailing wind blew the plume towards the door. The previous boiler was in the same position so would have been doing the same but i couldn't see it so it didn't annoy me.

 

[Reg Man]

Nice to see you back Tamz. There has been many a fatal poisoning in the past due to re-entry of POC's in the past from boiler flues, even though they are diluted. One springs to mind, is Domonic Rogers. His mum is fabulous in promoting gas safety, with the Domonic Rogers Trust.

 

[diamondgas]

"Many a Fatal Poisoning" Reg Man? Were the appliances of these "many fatal poisonings" otherwise installed as per manufacturers instructions and maintained correctly?? If they were I'd think the HSE would be advising revision wouldn't you?

Just did a search on the said incident .. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1456151/Neighbours-boiler-fumes-kill-boy-10.html

A lot of other factors contributed to the death of this person in 2004 by the looks of things, including position of installation in a passageway. It doesn't mention the appliance responsible either or whether it was maintained.

I and you adhere to manufacturers instructions when installing appliances. Have they got it wrong?

 

[Reg Man]

That's why BS was introduced for ambient readings. Domonic Rogers died, because of the neighbours boiler, terminating in a gimmel (passageway between building's) lots of dilution but still enough harmful POC's to migrate through the ceiling. It took very little time on reconstruction of the event to prove fatal levels.

 

[goz666]

My take on this, I fit a boiler last week which was about two metres from a door. I turned the flue terminal to point away from the door and away from the garden path. The trainee I had with me asked why when the flue was about 2.4mts high and I said just because it's good plume management. It reduces the risk of POC blowing back in, and it stops anyone from walking up the garden path getting a face full of POC/steam. I personally wouldn't ID a boiler for this but would offer strong advice and insist on a plume management kit.

 

[diamondgas]

I know CO is a killer, I have personally attended 4 CO poisoning incidents, along with explosion incidents, in my time, one of the CO poisonings fatal! All way back when the likelihood of CO poisoning was a great deal higher!

In the said incident above a great deal of contributing factors brought about this childs death and, in my opinion, does not compare with the ops post which seems to adhere to all the relevant mi's? albeit not the best 🙂

Update: found this article an interesting read for anyone interested http://www.southglos.gov.uk/Documents/Leaflets/Boiler Fumes 2011.pdf

 

[Reg Man]

Good article, but not absolutely accurate; Government study or not. A condensing boiler can produce up to 200ppm CO at 10%co2 and be with in manufacturer requirements for ratio readings. I guess they are working their figures out on the average. My discipline, was as a gas safety incident investigator mainly relating to CO poisonings.

 

[diamondgas]

Since the onset of condensing boilers and CO Alarms I have attended and tested about a dozens or so reports of fumes! On every occasion bar one there was no change in the customers room environment. The one that did was a tiny kitchen and the appliance in question turned out to be a cooker!

In my opinion without carrying out a room test you can prove nothing! If the appliance flue position is installed as per mi's then all you can say about the ops install is that at most it's a nuisance. You advise the customer of your findings, arrange for a room test to be carried out, if you can't do it yourself, and discuss the safety aspects with the customer. Let them make the decision as to whether they use it or not! End of the day they are now educated in the potential issues that may arise.

We do not have the right to deprive people of heat and hot water because of our fears IMHO 🙂

 

[armourer]

You use the regulations as law and everything else is up to your engineering discretion. Only the engineer on site at that particular time can make the call.
If another engineer then goes back under different weather conditions and he decides all is ok so be it but imo it is better to be cautious than to end up on a manslaughter charge.
Second guessing on a forum when you have not even seen a job is wrong imo.

 

[Pssst]

My view for what its worth is to ask the questions
1) Is the boiler fitted to manufs spec and is the flue positioned according to manufs spec and British standards?

2)Is the boiler operating correctly?

If the above are all yes then i see no case for ID and i would simply give verbal advice and append notes on documentation/receipt issued to customer.

One cannot be held responsible for the vagaries of the weather or the occupiers pattern of usage of doors or windows.

 

[Taffman]

i totally agree with Pssst on this one, if fitted to MIMs and is working correctly how can it be ID???