POC entering building

[Nvq level 3]

Send the apprentice round to pick the cheque up at least he can have the ear bashing off the customer, make him work for that bread!

 

[GrahamM]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

 

[Ermintrude]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

What? The plume is poc!

 

[diamondgas]

What? The plume is poc!

I'm with GrahamM .... The plume is steam; yes, it's produced by the boiler but it doesn't mean it's dangerous! We would be turning of a huge amount of boilers for plume entry IMHO. My own boiler plume blows up the side of my home and is still visible 6m away at the kitchen door on a cold day!

 

[Ermintrude]

Plume is product of combustion. Stand infront of boiler and breathe it in. The steam contains 9% co2 and 120ppm co . Usually the same as what's coming out if flue port, why would the water vapour separate from the other products as it left the flue and what would happen as it left the flue to render it safe? The water vapour is suspended in the other flue gasses. It's not steam as in a condensing boiler steam is condensed to water droplets .

 

[diamondgas]

the air it vents into will dilute the poc's rapidly I'd imagine.... the condensed water vapour is the visible "plume" as far as I'm aware? The CO and CO2 concentrations will dilute quite rapidly as they exit the flue into atmosphere. The readings you take with the fga are undiluted, straight from the burning process in the flue before it exits.

 

[tamz]

I agree with Diamond gas. The poc's are rapidly diluted as they leave the flue.

If it hadn't been a steamer and you couldn't see the plume leaving the flue would you have given it a second thought?

I altered my own flue for this reason and stuck a vertical on, not because i thought it was dangerous in any way, but because it annoyed me.
My flue was about 3m away from the door coming out at right angle but the prevailing wind blew the plume towards the door. The previous boiler was in the same position so would have been doing the same but i couldn't see it so it didn't annoy me.

 

[Reg Man]

Nice to see you back Tamz. There has been many a fatal poisoning in the past due to re-entry of POC's in the past from boiler flues, even though they are diluted. One springs to mind, is Domonic Rogers. His mum is fabulous in promoting gas safety, with the Domonic Rogers Trust.

 

[diamondgas]

"Many a Fatal Poisoning" Reg Man? Were the appliances of these "many fatal poisonings" otherwise installed as per manufacturers instructions and maintained correctly?? If they were I'd think the HSE would be advising revision wouldn't you?

Just did a search on the said incident .. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1456151/Neighbours-boiler-fumes-kill-boy-10.html

A lot of other factors contributed to the death of this person in 2004 by the looks of things, including position of installation in a passageway. It doesn't mention the appliance responsible either or whether it was maintained.

I and you adhere to manufacturers instructions when installing appliances. Have they got it wrong?

 

[Reg Man]

That's why BS was introduced for ambient readings. Domonic Rogers died, because of the neighbours boiler, terminating in a gimmel (passageway between building's) lots of dilution but still enough harmful POC's to migrate through the ceiling. It took very little time on reconstruction of the event to prove fatal levels.

 

[goz666]

My take on this, I fit a boiler last week which was about two metres from a door. I turned the flue terminal to point away from the door and away from the garden path. The trainee I had with me asked why when the flue was about 2.4mts high and I said just because it's good plume management. It reduces the risk of POC blowing back in, and it stops anyone from walking up the garden path getting a face full of POC/steam. I personally wouldn't ID a boiler for this but would offer strong advice and insist on a plume management kit.

 

[diamondgas]

I know CO is a killer, I have personally attended 4 CO poisoning incidents, along with explosion incidents, in my time, one of the CO poisonings fatal! All way back when the likelihood of CO poisoning was a great deal higher!

In the said incident above a great deal of contributing factors brought about this childs death and, in my opinion, does not compare with the ops post which seems to adhere to all the relevant mi's? albeit not the best 🙂

Update: found this article an interesting read for anyone interested http://www.southglos.gov.uk/Documents/Leaflets/Boiler Fumes 2011.pdf

 

[Reg Man]

Good article, but not absolutely accurate; Government study or not. A condensing boiler can produce up to 200ppm CO at 10%co2 and be with in manufacturer requirements for ratio readings. I guess they are working their figures out on the average. My discipline, was as a gas safety incident investigator mainly relating to CO poisonings.

 

[diamondgas]

Since the onset of condensing boilers and CO Alarms I have attended and tested about a dozens or so reports of fumes! On every occasion bar one there was no change in the customers room environment. The one that did was a tiny kitchen and the appliance in question turned out to be a cooker!

In my opinion without carrying out a room test you can prove nothing! If the appliance flue position is installed as per mi's then all you can say about the ops install is that at most it's a nuisance. You advise the customer of your findings, arrange for a room test to be carried out, if you can't do it yourself, and discuss the safety aspects with the customer. Let them make the decision as to whether they use it or not! End of the day they are now educated in the potential issues that may arise.

We do not have the right to deprive people of heat and hot water because of our fears IMHO 🙂

 

[armourer]

You use the regulations as law and everything else is up to your engineering discretion. Only the engineer on site at that particular time can make the call.
If another engineer then goes back under different weather conditions and he decides all is ok so be it but imo it is better to be cautious than to end up on a manslaughter charge.
Second guessing on a forum when you have not even seen a job is wrong imo.

 

[Pssst]

My view for what its worth is to ask the questions
1) Is the boiler fitted to manufs spec and is the flue positioned according to manufs spec and British standards?

2)Is the boiler operating correctly?

If the above are all yes then i see no case for ID and i would simply give verbal advice and append notes on documentation/receipt issued to customer.

One cannot be held responsible for the vagaries of the weather or the occupiers pattern of usage of doors or windows.

 

[Taffman]

i totally agree with Pssst on this one, if fitted to MIMs and is working correctly how can it be ID???