should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Depends how deep your pockets are these days!

 

[shorticus]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

@Tamz, so if someone wanted to fast-track and had the cash how quickly could they qualify?

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Haven't a clue. A lot quicker than it took me. Paper qualified and couldn't plumb in a washing machine after 4, 6, 8 weeks?

Personally i think it is a disgrace.

 

[shorticus]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

as I said I'm old school, C&G+advanced craft, took three years and even then I was still called 'the boy' ah such fond memories lol.
I've no idea what the nvq is all about, are there no indentured apprenticeships now?

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yes, for the selected few😉

Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction 😕 and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice 🙂

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

If Its right or wrong, NVQ is all there is. We can complain that when I did my apprenticeship, I had 3 years craft in plumbing then did 1 Year Advanced in Plumbing and sanitation, then did another year in Gas Oil and solid fuel services. 5 years total. That was the days when investment was available. We covered so much which is not used much today. We covered Lead roofing, Iron barrel work (including the bending) Cast drainage and lots more. In modern Plumbing not many even know what a Pudlock, mole skin or caulking iron is. Why should they? Its a just not used so much. When I first started Plastic did'nt exsist in supply services. Time moves on and lets be proud of what was done in the past, but don't critise the new training and NVQ schemes. A word of caution, Fast track schemes in my view are very bad for our industry.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

haha anyone who does a 6 week course or whatever you guys do to fast track are wasting there time. what is wrong with england and these pointless nvq system you got going on.
you cant even do a plumbing course in Scotland without a apprenticeship this is how it should be or at least fast track should take a minimum of 2 years and I would still say its too short to actually learn enough to call yourself a plumber I have been doing plumbing for about 13 -14 years and still dont know it all.
yes you may be good enough to use flexi hoses and plastic push fit on all your jobs but this cant even be described as what real plumbers do except on jobs that A/ THEY ARE NOT EARNING ENOUGH ON IT B/ THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY SNOWED UNDER AND NEED TO DO THE JOB QUICK.

what would actually happen to a guy who done a 6 week / 6 month or even year long plumbing course that comes up against some technical plumbing problem? tell the customer you will be back tomorrow after you chat with your mates on the plumbing forum lol.

this is for anyone who is considering fast tracking yes you can earn good money at plumbing but you will have to be good, fast and highly knowledgeable about all the different systems and problems that can arise and this you cant learn in a year. these are the things you pick up watching your tradesman and going to college over the 4 years and then the 2 to 3 years after your apprenticship is over then my friends you can call yourself a plumber

 

[smudger]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The NVQ 2 can't be a measure of competence because it only requires proof of very basic plumbing skills. There's no mandatory requirement to prove competence on heating systems, installation of cylinders, installation of storage tanks etc.
If you install a couple of bathrooms, change a couple of soil stacks and do some basic plumbing maintenance you have all the evidence needed to complete the portfolio.

The NVQ 3 is mostly concerned with the planning of works and customer service with two small tasks involving commissioning a heating and hot water system.

There's a huge gap in what's required to become qualified and what's required to do the job.


EDIT: sorry smudger, just read your post which says everything I was trying to say.

Yeah, but you said it much better. I agree with you totally, but I have a problem in that I really want to learn how to do the job properly, but can't find anyone to take me on (I'm mid- 40's), I'm a skilled tiler & general builder but most people would rather take on a (much cheaper) youngster (as would I) or think that I would leave in a year. Therefore, I'm forced to learn as I go. This is not really a problem as I will always try to do the job correctly and I seek advice/help if unsure (or won't take job on). So I'm not sure what the answer is really. I've only been working for a very short time and I've already seen some rubbish.

I would like to see more investment for proper vocational courses (rather than gcse's etc) at schools, so you can choose to do academic or learn a trade at 14, but this would cost money and the gov't would rather just make exams easier and pat themselves on the back for doing such a great job.

 

[smudger]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yes, for the selected few😉

Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction 😕 and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice 🙂

People are wrongly advised that they can go out and make a fortune after a short course, which is rubbish. The NVQ was (is) okay if it is used as part of an "on-the-job" training program over a couple of years. The problem is that other private providers have been allowed to hijack the system and sell the courses which are not fit for purpose (and not what they were intended or designed for).

For my part (I did one of the courses) I know I can't make a fortune from a being a jobbing plumber, too slow and not enough knowledge, and I probably never will have. The difference is that I (and many others) will sacrifice that fortune and do a good job. Yes that may mean I have to go and chat to more experienced people (sometimes on here), but the important thing is that the job is done properly. The problem is with people who just want to make the money and don't really care if the job is done correctly, just do it the quickest way possible, take the money and run. That has nothing to do skill or competance, that is about character, honesty and self-respect. There is no qualification for that.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

People are wrongly advised that they can go out and make a fortune after a short course, which is rubbish. The NVQ was (is) okay if it is used as part of an "on-the-job" training program over a couple of years. The problem is that other private providers have been allowed to hijack the system and sell the courses which are not fit for purpose (and not what they were intended or designed for).

For my part (I did one of the courses) I know I can't make a fortune from a being a jobbing plumber, too slow and not enough knowledge, and I probably never will have. The difference is that I (and many others) will sacrifice that fortune and do a good job. Yes that may mean I have to go and chat to more experienced people (sometimes on here), but the important thing is that the job is done properly. The problem is with people who just want to make the money and don't really care if the job is done correctly, just do it the quickest way possible, take the money and run. That has nothing to do skill or competance, that is about character, honesty and self-respect. There is no qualification for that.

well said

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

fair play to you

 

[Avatar]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I agree with smudger!

The real crime with these fast track course providers, is that they tell you after the 6129 you are a fully qualified plumber and can go out installing bathrooms and the like. They dont mention anything about getting experience or apprentiseships . . .

This and the fact that they are still advertising that there is a shortage of plumbers even now - i saw another ad in the paper the other day!

Someone should sue their bum for false advertising man!

 

[bedspoolplayer]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

its true u do have to be qualified to do gas but some people doing gas are just short course people never done any plumbing let alone gas work they tick all the right boxes answer the questions right then let loose on gas now thats crazy i know a couple gas safe guys seen them work straight in never do tightness test first they just become causal

 

[spanner]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yep and I must say as a student, that its best to be safe then sorry, you do find a lot of plumbers who don't have a qual but when it come to doing a practical stint are pretty good, and you can always learn a thing or 2.. But the thing that's in the back of the mind is to get the qualification finished, and if you're a looker you'll catch on the practical in theory the real way of how to do the job and the MAIN thing is the "properties" that particular job involves and so on...

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Spanner I like your location, Better news for the team today, no ofence to villa boys. Pleased your enjoying the training, the most important thing to being a good plumber is remebering the theory and applying it with the experience. Unfortunately some do what they think they can get away with and it give the industry a bad name.

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

This is an interesting discussion and here is my view from the outside

'Proper' regulation like GasSafe will probably be a step too far.

That said I don't see why plumbers should not all have to reach a certain level of competency - regardless of what training method they initally took.

Those that have paper qualifications get immediate certification, and those that dont have formal qualifications could have access to a test to confirm their skills

-----------

Perhaps one method that I haven't seen mentioned...

Plenty of industries require the worker to have a set of qualifications before they can call thenmselves something.

Why not create a new title like 'accredited plumber' for people who have proved their competence. it then becomes illegal to use that title unless you have been accredited - much like it would be illegal to call yourself a solicitor or whatever

this could then be administered by some trade body that do little mroe than check competency and list it on a website

----

GasSafe isn't perfect but people do have SOME aareness of it, which is better than nothing

Someone has mentioned that the authoirities couldnt deal with every case of a rogue tradesman, but i spose the idea is that a new title would soon become accepted as the standard for any plumber and anyone going around faking it is open to prosecution.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

it used to be simple, qualifications were proof of competence, but when they altered the quals to a tec cert only without need for any expereince we now have qualified people who have never ever worked as plumbers. if they hadnt designed a short cut we wouldnt have this problem

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i think part of the problem is anyone can go around calling themselves a plumber, it makes it hard to distinguish who knows what. there is no link between qualifications and title, whereas if you go to a chartered accountant you know that in order to become chartered they have done *soemthing*

sure there will be dodgy people everywhere but this is just 1 extra safeguard.

i doubt the average joe considers what qualifications their plumber has (assuming they can do the job properly) but perhaps they would care a bit more if they knew there was a standard to achieve and that most good plumbers would have bothered to achieve that standard.

 

[metaldust9]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

quals dont make a blind bit of diffremce theres still bad work out there ,i done tiling with no experience except tiling dvd ,s and working with someone who,d done it and it didnt mean i was anygood cos showing someone and doing it yourself is totally diffrent but i can prove the work av done so am ok, well said smudger am like you

the one that gets me is,doing the gas with no plumbing knowelage, how can ye do it,ie having to change y plans to combi,s etc i no people whove only done the gas

 

[Bartdude]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Interesting thread.

The Scottish approach has merits I think,and there's no doubt it's too easy to get 'qualifications'. I also think the early post about having to have a recognised qualification before being allowed to start up in business is good.

I certainly think it's true that the general standard of work was better when an apprenticeship was the only way into the trade.I started my apprenticeship in 1988 and qualified 6 years later(2 years improvers). The first 2 years at college were block release,4 weeks at a time,it stands to reason that this type of training will produce better standards(in all trades)Of course there were bad plumbers then also,but over the course of 4 years they would get found out and dropped by the wayside. It's far easier to stay the course and get qualified if it only takes 12 weeks!

There are still apprenticeships around but from what I see they are much scarcer these days,I do think that generally the cream rises to the top and if someone is dedicated and good at the job they will do well and end up in the job they want.
Smudger raises some very good points and I like the idea of investing more in vocational subjects at school, that should be explored further.

Ultimately customers need to be more discerning in who they employ and that will always be difficult when price is the overriding factor and quality comes a poor second.I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to show my Gas Safe or Oftec card!

I'm sure many in the trade would say we have enough regulation already and skilled as we are,the job isn't really comparable to,say, a pilot or a doctor,for whom the selection and policing has to be far more stringent. I do agree that we need to tighten up the standards within the industry however,and fast track courses are doing nothing to help achieve that.

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Years ago, when The Institute of Plumbing was the leading recognised body for the industry, we had to demonstrate that we were suitably qualified to join. This really meant something. Although you were not legally required to be IOP, at least the customer could have better assurance that the plumber they were employing new what the were doing. This all seem to be water'ed down over the year's (excuse the thrase) as registration bodies are competing for business and seem to allow almost anyone to register.

 

[cr0ft]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

My 2 pence. If you run your own business then your business thrives or dies on the quality of your work. Cowboy plumbers are (generally) come in a lot cheaper than fully qualified, registered plumbers who run their businesses properly. Therefore, cowboy plumbers only exist because of unrealistic customers who believe they can get more for less.

The solution? Realistic customers I would say!

Being a qualified plumber myself, I really don't believe most plumbing qualifications are worth their salt. I am relatively inexperienced as plumbers go but I have picked up on gas leaks caused by Gas Safe fitters...

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

cowboy plubmers are not always cheap.

its difficult for the average customer to know what a job is worth

I am sure there are big variances in rates amongst 'genuine' plumbers.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i agree with what is being said about bodys such as ciphe accepting anyone just to boost there membership and cash for there owners.
i think there should only be one plumbing body for england just like snipef in scotland who only accept timeserved with svq3 ... i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?
no wonder all these rougue tradesman shows are always in places like england with some of the practises that go on there.
fair play there are some older guys from years ago who never went to college and are as good as any plumber but these days the law should be changed to only allow any sort of trade qualification would have to have worked for so many years before they can get certificate or call there self a plumber, joiner, brick layer or tiler.

wasnt the cscs / jib card meant to help with this? building sites require them but do the average customer even know that to get one of these that says plumber or advanced plumber etc you would have to have proved your competence with certificates maybe awareness should about this should be more widespread.

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?

NVQ2 is roughly the equivilent to a C&G craft cert and a NVQ3 to Advanced Craft.
When i served my time probably around 80% only did the Craft (3 years) as going back for the 4th year was down to the employer.

Now it is (in Scotland) a standard to do an SVQ3 which is still only 3 years so where has the extra year's study gone? No more 3D trigonometry and Reynolds numbers?
How many can remember how to use /do that?

 

[robinwatson]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You have to be qualified to do gas work but we still see the pics posted on here an in the mags, the poor work will still be carried out, qualified or not

Qualification/regulation is definitely the way to go. For new entrants, how about a comprehensive 'degree' type course? Paramedics and social workers now both have these in place. Rogue traders should be prosecuted more readily and not be allowed to simple start trading again under a new name, as is the case at the moment. Crazy world!

 

[REDSAW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

NVQ2 is roughly the equivilent to a C&G craft cert and a NVQ3 to Advanced Craft.
When i served my time probably around 80% only did the Craft (3 years) as going back for the 4th year was down to the employer.

Now it is (in Scotland) a standard to do an SVQ3 which is still only 3 years so where has the extra year's study gone? No more 3D trigonometry and Reynolds numbers?
How many can remember how to use /do that?

cant knock the lads with just the nvq2, it was a choice to get on the tools early and get earning quicker than the boys who wanted to be forman work in the office or sign of the jobs at the time 'sod that'= lets go to the pub.
my point is, if you have a nvq2, gas ticket, work for yourself but get advice or employ help for more complex jobs, then i ask is a plumber with nvq3 working for an employer any better a plumber?.
after all the nvq3 bit covers complex heating systems (open vent & unvented), system design, business skills and gas. if you have your own business this is what you pay others for, it does not mean you are a crapper 'plumber'.

another point of thought,
when you take the school run car in to the local garage for a new set of brakes, do you ask the mechanic to show you his qualifications?.
i can bet a lot of 'back street garages' are not all that qualified on paper and there is no law against it either,

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I am not knocking guys with the level 2 thing as before it was explained by tamz i never new what the difference was any one who has went to study at college and got a trade certificate with experience is a plumber just not these guys who only do the college but dont work for a couple of years at least min 2 years should not be allowed to start up plumbing buisinesses as it is false in what the are saying as they dont have the experience to call themselfs a plumber.
This was what this whole thread was about was should the government make it law to protect the public from rogue tradesmen you see on those shows on tv.
I think it is about time there were stricter regulations about what you need to do to call yourself not only a plumber but any other trade that is out there

 

[Bartdude]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There will always be rogue tradesmen,no matter what is done that won't change. I think the public are better protected and more aware of that than ever,that's down to the publicity and the whole Watchdog/Rogue trader culture,also the internet has had a huge influence,all the information is there for customers if they want to look.

The problem lies with the quality of the training on offer now,it's simply not as good as it was and as a result standards drop accordingly.If it was standardised so that there was one way into the industry,combining good classroom work and proper on the job training things would improve.It's not very likely though,those days seem to have gone and there are too many willing to fill the places on fast track courses.As stated in previous posts it's not the fault of the people who take these courses,and there are lots of good tradesmen produced by the current methods,although I think that's down to the individuals' talents rather than the training.

Would a law help? I'm not so sure,we already have Gas Safe,Oftec,HETAS,CIPHE,WRAS et al and we're having these discussions more than ever,maybe it could be tightened up but if the customers don't heed it and ensure that they employ the right people then how much difference would it make?

By improving the way people are trained the whole industry would benefit and so would customers,start at the source.Easier said than done I'm afraid.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

no need to bring in a further layer of competence, just tighten up the training and asssessment in the first place and ask that people are qualified. thats were the new quals come in

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

so we can say that the conclusion this thread has come to is that the government could start by banning all fast track courses in plumbing then? or at least the ones that run when people dont have any experience in the industry or dont have a company willing to give them experience.
I cant understand why anyone would pay 6 grand to a fast track centre and come out worse than a first years apprentice and then are let loose on the general public.

Gas is regulated so is oil etc etc but badly installed plumbing and particuarly sanitation systems can be hazardous to peoples health if not installed with the proper understanding and in the correct way.
also people who dont have correct experience can cause lots of damage to peoples houses as they dont really know what they are doing and will probably flood the house.

I think this has now been discussed from every angle and every one can safely say that there will be not one single change made to the current set up anytime soon which is a real shame as single parents and the elderly up and down the country will keep getting charged for plumbing work that they cant afford and then will have to pay again to get it fixed i feel sorry for them as a person who calls there self a plumber or any other trade name should not be allowed to do so without proving competence rant over

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think one more thing thatr could help is for instance insurance companys will not pay out for any water damage unless the work caqrried out was from a time served plumber this would then force customers to think twice about who they employ to do work in there house.
I think this would be the best angle to hit it from

 

[REDSAW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think one more thing thatr could help is for instance insurance companys will not pay out for any water damage unless the work caqrried out was from a time served plumber this would then force customers to think twice about who they employ to do work in there house.
I think this would be the best angle to hit it from

wont work,
not every one has insurance, its not compulsory.
i and the wife for over 20 years=no insurance and no real need to untill recently we have it free through the bank.

simples is just to make it illegal so you can be arrested for practicing without a licence just the same as if your driving. let the customer rat on them.

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

A person who calls themselves a Plumber should have integrity and be able to carry out what he or she claims they can.

As has been pointed out in mails qualification is not the answer. Some registered and qualified people seem to make more mess than an unqualified one. Licensing will not help either only drive up prices in an already expensive repair industry.

Just make it against the law to do bad Plumbing and police the industry properly.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

how can they make bad plumbing law? its subjective, laws need to be black and white.
proper quals are the answer

 

[aquad]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I am wondering if in the future it might be a good idea to internationalize a licensing scheme for plumbers? This way, knowledge (and enterprises like water conservation) could be pooled, and techniques and their implementation advanced. Besides, then I could think of using this professional credential to see so much of the world outside the UK, since I could finance my travels by working on the hoof.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

this point i am making here has nothing to do with the law just what other countrys seem to think of your current set up for example and this is a fact a guy from scotland who has done his apprenticship in scotland applys to work in australia providing he passes all criminal checks etc is accepted no problem a guy who has done his training in england under your current system ie nvq applys to work in australia he will find it twice as tough and will need to sit more exams than the guy who is snjib registered and served his time in scotland this is a fdact google it up.
Now if this does not tell you the current set up you got going on is not flawed then i dont no what does basically people know the quality of plumber being produced due to this fast track culture cannot be accepted.
scottish qualifications are accepted anywhere no problem are nvqs? so a guy who done his nvq the correct way i.e. 3 or 4 years apprenticeship can be tarred with the same brush as the guy who fast tracked as they have got same qualification on paper very very strange how it was allowed to get to this stage

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

may be summit skills and the jib should be doing more to combat this type oif thing.
yes you can get people who are very good at exams but have no real understanding of how to a carry out the job with there hands.
and multi choice questions? i hope that staement is not correct as if mukti choice usually straight away 2 answers will be totally wrong and even a monkey would know this so the guy has only 2 others toi pick from and let me guess if he gets wrong he gets another chance?
I think people like bernie who seems to know what he is talking about should be getting asked from the powers that be for his input in changeing things for the better in this industry.
I got family in building trade in england who have seen my work and told me good plumbers are hard to find these days as the bad ones out number them now wow change needs to bhappen soon

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

how is your capabilities judged on jib card? when i had an advanced installers card years ago it just needed signing by an employer, anyone will do that to get rid of you...or was that just me in my early 20s?

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

how is your capabilities judged on jib card? when i had an advanced installers card years ago it just needed signing by an employer, anyone will do that to get rid of you...or was that just me in my early 20s?

having a jib card does not prove you are some sort of plumbing specialist but what it does prove at least is you have actually proved you worked in the industry for 5 , 4 or even 3 years or whatever years you done so will have a damn lot more experience than others and that you done college etc etc etc i am finished commenting on this thread now altogether i know now what needs to be done but i also know it wont happen so whats the point

 

[CIPHE]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Ces

Don't underestimate the value of Eng Tech it is a Professional Qualification. Whilst the easiest way to gain recognition is through college (Tech Cert) together with work-based (N/SVQ) gained qualifications, there has to be other ways to gain recognition. That said they need to be more exacting otherwise we could just hand them out to anyone and it would be the general public that would suffer whilst the amateur learned how to be professional with no supervision and leaving behind a trail of mistakes and people who think we are all as bad as the worst of Rogue Traders.

CIPHE CEO

 

[royston]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You carnt solely blame these fast track courses as its down to these guys taking them that should have the responsibility and realise they are not world class plumbers when they have there qualifications, and should realise that the years to come are when they will learn the trade. It was day release when i was at collage over 2 years, so i had plenty of hands on experience when i finised at collage. even now 19 years later im still picking information up. Its hard nowdays yes but an apprenticeship has to be the only way. ive almost finished my gas now after 12 months of portfolio building and know ive alot of learning still to be done, but as im learning i know that safety will be paramount.

 

[CES]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I don't underestimate it to be honest, I'm actually working my way to IEng. Still trading quite successfully, and still learning, but I expect to be learning right up to the day I pack up the tools.

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There is far to much regulation, rules, laws and interference in our lives by sucsessive goverments. Some things should be regulated like the gas industry but they haven`t done a very good job of that either. dont think passing another law will make one bit of difference to the plumbing industry. When a house holder employes a mate or Joe down the street he knows what he is doing, he is exercising his freedom. I would prefare he employed a time served or trained plumber, however I will defend his right to spend his money were he wants. I would not want to spend my life in a country that has lost the freedom of the individual, look at the countries in Asia they would love our freedoms don`t give your rights and freedoms away so cheap.

 

[Puddle]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There is far to much regulation, rules, laws and interference in our lives by sucsessive goverments. Some things should be regulated like the gas industry but they haven`t done a very good job of that either. dont think passing another law will make one bit of difference to the plumbing industry. When a house holder employes a mate or Joe down the street he knows what he is doing, he is exercising his freedom. I would prefare he employed a time served or trained plumber, however I will defend his right to spend his money were he wants. I would not want to spend my life in a country that has lost the freedom of the individual, look at the countries in Asia they would love our freedoms don`t give your rights and freedoms away so cheap.

What rights or freedoms has the person living below Joe got when water poor’s through their ceiling, as he has got a decorator in to repair his pipework or what rights or freedoms has a neighbour got when they turn on the cold tap in the kitchen and fowl soil water runs out, siphoned from next door’s newly fitted shower they let the gardener fit while they were exercising their rights
Your rights and freedoms are..... to have plumbing or..... not have plumbing, if he decides to have plumbing, he has a obligation to those around him to maintain it and have it maintained correctly
imho

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

With freedoms comes resonsability I never said we should abandon our responsabilities or obligations to our neighbours, taking away freedoms is another matter, the idea of engineering a ordered society has failed through out the world, check out Russia, China ext. (not having a go at anyone, just airing my opinion which was asked for or should that be regulated as well)

 

[Puddle]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

With freedoms comes resonsability I never said we should abandon our responsabilities or obligations to our neighbours, taking away freedoms is another matter, the idea of engineering a ordered society has failed through out the world, check out Russia, China ext. (not having a go at anyone, just airing my opinion which was asked for or should that be regulated as well)

So should we defend the rights and freedoms of Joe to get who he likes in to do his plumbing
or
the rights and freedoms of the person down stairs would may be flooded and all her possessions damaged

you are airing your opinion and very much appreciated

and ,no, I do not think opinions should be regulated, just potential irresponsible actions

imho

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There is far to much regulation, rules, laws and interference in our lives by sucsessive goverments. Some things should be regulated like the gas industry but they haven`t done a very good job of that either. dont think passing another law will make one bit of difference to the plumbing industry. When a house holder employes a mate or Joe down the street he knows what he is doing, he is exercising his freedom. I would prefare he employed a time served or trained plumber, however I will defend his right to spend his money were he wants. I would not want to spend my life in a country that has lost the freedom of the individual, look at the countries in Asia they would love our freedoms don`t give your rights and freedoms away so cheap.

does joe pay tax?

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I dont suppose Joe pay`s tax, (hyperthetic Joe) but I bet most of us myself included trade with Wolsley, who`s re-located abroad to a tax freindly country to avoid UK tax, so lets not be to hard on Joe if we trade with any wolsley company. As for irisponsable actions how about the merchants ect, we trade with that sell boilers, rads ect to Joe Public. The goverment encourage that, don`t have a go at our Joe who lives down your road when there are greater wrongs going on undisturbed

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I also mentioned that I prefared Joe to use Bona Fida traesdsmen in my earlier post

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I dont suppose Joe pay`s tax, (hyperthetic Joe) but I bet most of us myself included trade with Wolsley, who`s re-located abroad to a tax freindly country to avoid UK tax, so lets not be to hard on Joe if we trade with any wolsley company. As for irisponsable actions how about the merchants ect, we trade with that sell boilers, rads ect to Joe Public. The goverment encourage that, don`t have a go at our Joe who lives down your road when there are greater wrongs going on undisturbed

greater wrongs or not doesnt make diy'ing for a fee right, it defo aint. diy is for your own home, when someones getting paid it they should be competent and pay tax.

as for merchants why should they decide who they can or cannot sell to? they have the right to trade, its not illegal to buy a gas boiler, only to work on it unless you have the correct competences

 

[desrob]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

yes brilliant idea, take it to the prime minister, the amount of jobs i have lost because i am not gas safe registered, yet i have got my NVQ 3 and all my technical certificates. For some reason people believe that being gas safe is the qualification needed to be a plumber. Also people telling me £400 to do a bathroom is expensive, well when the job is of good quality, then it isnt that much to pay compared to the cock ups of cowboys and these cowboys are charging £200 for a bathroom stealing decent plumbers livelihoods. another idea is to make a TV program of how well projects can go instead of all these cowboy programs which scare the public. Another idea is to make CIPHE a legal requirement of doing any plumbing work. People are still saying Corgi a year after Gas safe took over so it will take a while what ever the change unless it is publicly announced. Why should some bloke steal our work when he has no qualifications yet we have been to college for 3 years and having to price ourselves the same as somebody who doesnt even know what an air admittance valve is. You wouldnt trust a none qualified doctor so why trust a none qualified plumber

you need to have a nvq to work on sites,but no one polices it,and these people that do the 6129 and think there fully qualified as damaged the industry and £400 for a full bathroom is cheap,£700+

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Fuzzy, I did post the gas industry is right to be regulated I agree with regulations of this nature, however this is a two edged sword surley if the equipment is to dangerouse to work on unqualified it follows only qualified persons should purchase them that is logical, even if it is legal to sell gas items to the public is it right in light of the controls on installation. On the subject of doing a bit of plumbing which is what the discusion is about we should be honest with ourselves, which one of us has not done a cash job. remember the saying let him without sin cast the first stone. I never said we should get rid of every rule, reg or law we have to live by I said there was to many already.

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

lol

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Fuzzy, I did post the gas industry is right to be regulated I agree with regulations of this nature, however this is a two edged sword surley if the equipment is to dangerouse to work on unqualified it follows only qualified persons should purchase them that is logical, even if it is legal to sell gas items to the public is it right in light of the controls on installation. On the subject of doing a bit of plumbing which is what the discusion is about we should be honest with ourselves, which one of us has not done a cash job. remember the saying let him without sin cast the first stone. I never said we should get rid of every rule, reg or law we have to live by I said there was to many already.

ive never done work that i am not competent to do for money

 

[ranger1]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Fuzzy, I am not for one minute suggesting you personally are doing work you are not competent to carry out, I would not want you to think that is what I am getting at, I just dont think we should judge people to harsh over a bit of plumbing or ask for any legislation to regulate the industry it will only mean red tape for us, more costs we have to pass on to customers, making it better an more profitable for those doing private work, which current regulation proves does nothing to stop ilegal work. The history of goverment regulation has not all been good when it is put to the test and exposed. I sometimes think a camel is a horse desighned by a commitee of MPs. But I will apologise for giving you the impresion I was getting at you or anyone else for that matter. sorry mate

 

[Admin]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Don't mind me while I bump some threads in the plumbing forum category. This thread might not be a current topic, if it isn't, just let it drop off the list.

If you DO want to reply to it, go ahead, that's fine. Your post might add some value to the thread and help newer members in the future.

 

[bcp]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

No. If you follow this route, then the same should apply for Motor Mechanics (or engineers - whatever your preferred terminology), so no working on your own vehicles etc etc. Once you have opened the flood gates to this principle, it's the back door to introduce it on loads of other areas and types of work. Once you restrict the work, you then not only need to put in place policing of it, but regulatory bodies to set standards and levy charges for registration and testing. Eventually you will end up with an exclusive elite over time. As far as gas goes, there is a safety element, but normal wet plumbing?????? if the punter wants to pay dirt cheap and get duff results, then that's a free market economy. The next thing will be having to submit video footage of you working to a quasi body who will certify your work OK or not.

 

[12poi]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

All trades and occupations are licensed in California & most US states. See youtube for videos of cops with drawn guns arresting guys who are unlicensed. The state employs massive hit and sting squads. Do we want anything like that in the UK?
The bureaucracy required to administer the licensing system is huge and expensive. Does it stop unlicensed work or illegal workers? No way - absolutely no way. Thousands of rubbish jobs are reported each year, jobs done by licensed and unlicensed contractors eg. reports of
Hairdressers turning womens hair orange or purple and in one case setting fire to her hair.

As someone has said, there are no real answers - since the collapse of the UK apprentice system anything goes.

 

[noggin78]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think a Water regulations certificate and water safe registration should be the minimum requirement to touch a plumbing system.