Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
thanks fuzzy
thanks fuzzy
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?
View the thread, titled "should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?" which is posted in Gaining Plumbing Experience on UK Plumbers Forums.
M
MattyW
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Definetely should, or should have to declare it, I was shocked when I started my course and found out you needed no qualification to work as a plumber. You need to have a food certificate if you work in that industry so why not one for drinking water, not to mention if you get waste pipes wrong in someones house.
Definetely should, or should have to declare it, I was shocked when I started my course and found out you needed no qualification to work as a plumber. You need to have a food certificate if you work in that industry so why not one for drinking water, not to mention if you get waste pipes wrong in someones house.
T
Tong
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
This is an interesting thread but seems to not lead anywhere .. successive governments have always rejected calls by CIPHE and others for compulsory registration of plumbers and the only reasoning is that its too hard or too costly or some other political excuse?? In Australia particularly Victoria they have a system where all plumbers are licenced at differing levels contractor, tradesman etc. a contractor can certify work for his employees .. every job over $500 has to be registered with the commission and the night before logged in the database by phone or computer i.e rough-in, 2nd fix etc .. a percentage (I think 5%) of these jobs are selected by the computer for inspection on the day so nobody knows where or when till the inspector arrives .. the plumber doesn't have to be there as the inspector will put stickers green or RED!!! ..... Now that would be something to see in GB!
I do know as another poster mentioned that SNIPEF in Scotland & NI have started their own registration scheme (good for them) and it has some support from the Scottish parliament who seem to be less bogged down with silly burocrats who wouldn't know s**t from cheese!
This is an interesting thread but seems to not lead anywhere .. successive governments have always rejected calls by CIPHE and others for compulsory registration of plumbers and the only reasoning is that its too hard or too costly or some other political excuse?? In Australia particularly Victoria they have a system where all plumbers are licenced at differing levels contractor, tradesman etc. a contractor can certify work for his employees .. every job over $500 has to be registered with the commission and the night before logged in the database by phone or computer i.e rough-in, 2nd fix etc .. a percentage (I think 5%) of these jobs are selected by the computer for inspection on the day so nobody knows where or when till the inspector arrives .. the plumber doesn't have to be there as the inspector will put stickers green or RED!!! ..... Now that would be something to see in GB!
I do know as another poster mentioned that SNIPEF in Scotland & NI have started their own registration scheme (good for them) and it has some support from the Scottish parliament who seem to be less bogged down with silly burocrats who wouldn't know s**t from cheese!
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
why do we need more legislation? isnt having a plumbing qual registration in itself?
why do we need more legislation? isnt having a plumbing qual registration in itself?
B
Bernie2
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Hmm!
A few years ago the JIB wanted only graded Plumbers registered with them to be allowed to do Plumbing work?
The government never allowed it.
Most new start self employed Plumbers without a qualifying work record would say no to that.
Being a retired Technical JIB Plumber I could of course probably say yes to it. But that is only me being self interested, it may not be good for the customers of the industry who without we would have no industry and all be on the dole. So lets be fare to them.
Hmm!
A few years ago the JIB wanted only graded Plumbers registered with them to be allowed to do Plumbing work?
The government never allowed it.
Most new start self employed Plumbers without a qualifying work record would say no to that.
Being a retired Technical JIB Plumber I could of course probably say yes to it. But that is only me being self interested, it may not be good for the customers of the industry who without we would have no industry and all be on the dole. So lets be fare to them.
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Reulations are only effective if the relevant bodies enforce them. Unfortunately this does not happen enough. We need consumer bodies in between to follow up on complaints. The HSE, Trading standards and envoiromental health have not got the resource to follow up everything that goes wrong. Qualifications for a tradesman are not enough, because all to often, some of these qualified people ignor what they know and do a bad job.
Reulations are only effective if the relevant bodies enforce them. Unfortunately this does not happen enough. We need consumer bodies in between to follow up on complaints. The HSE, Trading standards and envoiromental health have not got the resource to follow up everything that goes wrong. Qualifications for a tradesman are not enough, because all to often, some of these qualified people ignor what they know and do a bad job.
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
From a tradesman's point of view, yes require lots of certificates. From a customers view, no, just have a way to prove good quality of tidy work at reasonable price. So maybe have a website which lists all plumbers and all jobs done by them with customer comments so a new potential customer can make an informed choice.
Every craft, profession, is in the same situation. Photographers have very high costs, training yet everyone thinks they can take a photo. Writers learn their craft but are undercut by others writing. University lecturers may have done 12 years of training yet earn less than a plumber.
No, more legislation and restrictions isn't the way. Educate the customer to want a good job and show then that you can do that good job by word of mouth referrals. Some people simply won't be able to afford an expensive qualified person (plumber, electrician, gas fitter, window installer) so should they be forced to go without?
From a tradesman's point of view, yes require lots of certificates. From a customers view, no, just have a way to prove good quality of tidy work at reasonable price. So maybe have a website which lists all plumbers and all jobs done by them with customer comments so a new potential customer can make an informed choice.
Every craft, profession, is in the same situation. Photographers have very high costs, training yet everyone thinks they can take a photo. Writers learn their craft but are undercut by others writing. University lecturers may have done 12 years of training yet earn less than a plumber.
No, more legislation and restrictions isn't the way. Educate the customer to want a good job and show then that you can do that good job by word of mouth referrals. Some people simply won't be able to afford an expensive qualified person (plumber, electrician, gas fitter, window installer) so should they be forced to go without?
C
coradia
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Being a Gas safe registered Heating Engineer and seeing how expensive it is to be gas safe registered and hard we are policed. To bring in a seperate body to monitor plumbers would be a nightmare, what about the guy who can turn his hand to anything like a Handyman and earns a living doing odd jobs and can quite easily plumb a washing machine in or change a tap, would that mean that even if he did 3 or 4 "plumbing jobs" a year he would need a license? end result is really creating another body and making up jobs that the plumbers pay for and i think it is enough that i should pay for my gas safe without then paying for the plumbing aspect. End result is that we charge more and the consumer funds yet another government department i can see Corgi now rubbing their hands waiting in the wings.
Being a Gas safe registered Heating Engineer and seeing how expensive it is to be gas safe registered and hard we are policed. To bring in a seperate body to monitor plumbers would be a nightmare, what about the guy who can turn his hand to anything like a Handyman and earns a living doing odd jobs and can quite easily plumb a washing machine in or change a tap, would that mean that even if he did 3 or 4 "plumbing jobs" a year he would need a license? end result is really creating another body and making up jobs that the plumbers pay for and i think it is enough that i should pay for my gas safe without then paying for the plumbing aspect. End result is that we charge more and the consumer funds yet another government department i can see Corgi now rubbing their hands waiting in the wings.
T
tamz
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
I like the Australia setup thing. It sounds easily enough run to me. Those who do their work right have nothing to fear.
Regulation would not stop DIY work.
I don't know anything about it, but i bet in Australia there is still lots of DIY work done.
When i started working in the 70's, we had water officers going around the district checking things and issuing notices as they had done for years before. Never seen one for maybe 20 years now and i honestly don't know if there is such a position any more. Such is progress.
What i do know is there needs to be some form of regulation here. As Reg man said. Bad plumbing is not killing anyone (well not directly) so nothing will be done!
I like the Australia setup thing. It sounds easily enough run to me. Those who do their work right have nothing to fear.
Regulation would not stop DIY work.
I don't know anything about it, but i bet in Australia there is still lots of DIY work done.
When i started working in the 70's, we had water officers going around the district checking things and issuing notices as they had done for years before. Never seen one for maybe 20 years now and i honestly don't know if there is such a position any more. Such is progress.
What i do know is there needs to be some form of regulation here. As Reg man said. Bad plumbing is not killing anyone (well not directly) so nothing will be done!
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
the government is already doing something similar with renewables although its not law to be MCS registered the customer won't be able to claim rhi without the installer and the equipment being MCS registered when the rhi comes into force next april it will be a closed shop unless your'e registered. I think it's a good idea but it would be to difficult and epensive to police plumbing installations.
the government is already doing something similar with renewables although its not law to be MCS registered the customer won't be able to claim rhi without the installer and the equipment being MCS registered when the rhi comes into force next april it will be a closed shop unless your'e registered. I think it's a good idea but it would be to difficult and epensive to police plumbing installations.
B
Bernie2
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
I agree with Tamz, in the 60's water inspectors where everywhere, most where old tradesman, in point I think they all where and you could not kid them. If the job was crap they told you so.
The thing is they where usually paid for by the local council but with council cut backs they no longer as far as I know exist, so no quality control checks are carried out on anything anymore, its all customer beware and no real quality check for the customers.
I looked at a boiler for someone the other day as it was loosing pressure. My ACS and registration having run out now being retired, I could only look and advise, not touch.
Anyway it was a 10 year old Glow Worm with a loose front none combustion chamber cover on it. I took it off refilled the system and spotted the leak right away. It was on the pump hose, the jubilee clip had dug into the hose to the point it was nearly right through.
So they called the maintenance company out, who came on three separate occasions to try and stop the leak, they never, instead they recommended a new boiler.
The renewal of the hose and parts should have come to about £12 for the hose and whatever labour charges but possible an hour and a half's work I would say about £60 worth of work, instead the customer is now facing a £2,500 bill and knowing no better they have said yes.
Its this kind of what appears aggressive selling I don't like in the game and why we need somebody to over see this quality side, at the moment its all "If you don't like it, go elsewhere, plenty who will pay"
I agree with Tamz, in the 60's water inspectors where everywhere, most where old tradesman, in point I think they all where and you could not kid them. If the job was crap they told you so.
The thing is they where usually paid for by the local council but with council cut backs they no longer as far as I know exist, so no quality control checks are carried out on anything anymore, its all customer beware and no real quality check for the customers.
I looked at a boiler for someone the other day as it was loosing pressure. My ACS and registration having run out now being retired, I could only look and advise, not touch.
Anyway it was a 10 year old Glow Worm with a loose front none combustion chamber cover on it. I took it off refilled the system and spotted the leak right away. It was on the pump hose, the jubilee clip had dug into the hose to the point it was nearly right through.
So they called the maintenance company out, who came on three separate occasions to try and stop the leak, they never, instead they recommended a new boiler.
The renewal of the hose and parts should have come to about £12 for the hose and whatever labour charges but possible an hour and a half's work I would say about £60 worth of work, instead the customer is now facing a £2,500 bill and knowing no better they have said yes.
Its this kind of what appears aggressive selling I don't like in the game and why we need somebody to over see this quality side, at the moment its all "If you don't like it, go elsewhere, plenty who will pay"
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
not sure how registration would stop that happening, possibly make it worse!
not sure how registration would stop that happening, possibly make it worse!
M
marsaday
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
If plumbing is to be regulated in this way, then what about brikies, joiners, window fitters, the list goes on.
Heating engineers and sparkies i can see why they need more regulation. But regulation just forces up costs and we dont need that. it would be good if you are a plumber, but not the general public. plus you will still get crap plumbers doing crap work.
If plumbing is to be regulated in this way, then what about brikies, joiners, window fitters, the list goes on.
Heating engineers and sparkies i can see why they need more regulation. But regulation just forces up costs and we dont need that. it would be good if you are a plumber, but not the general public. plus you will still get crap plumbers doing crap work.
T
Tong
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
I think what is being forgotten is the contribution to public health good plumbing actually makes.. and the fact that bad plumbing can kill people as evidenced in Hong Kong during the SARS outbreak along with legionella etc. etc. I am not so naieve as to believe that regulation and control can prevent that entirely but the danger from bad plumbing can be just as present as that from bad gas work. The problem is it's not so apparent and who's to say that the sore throats and less serious viruses are not potentialy spread by bad sanitation and contaminated water supply.
I think what is being forgotten is the contribution to public health good plumbing actually makes.. and the fact that bad plumbing can kill people as evidenced in Hong Kong during the SARS outbreak along with legionella etc. etc. I am not so naieve as to believe that regulation and control can prevent that entirely but the danger from bad plumbing can be just as present as that from bad gas work. The problem is it's not so apparent and who's to say that the sore throats and less serious viruses are not potentialy spread by bad sanitation and contaminated water supply.
S
shaunhighcock
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Im not qualified but i always do an excellent job never had an unhappy customer, I'm not a plumber for the money but because I enjoy it so i think that makes a big difference!!
Im not qualified but i always do an excellent job never had an unhappy customer, I'm not a plumber for the money but because I enjoy it so i think that makes a big difference!!
T
tamz
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
The work may look the part and the customer be pleased but how do you know you are doing it correctly, using the correct materials (because you can buy it don't mean you can legally fit it) and fitting to standard?
If you have never been trained or no one has ever checked it you won't know and your customers know even less.
The work may look the part and the customer be pleased but how do you know you are doing it correctly, using the correct materials (because you can buy it don't mean you can legally fit it) and fitting to standard?
If you have never been trained or no one has ever checked it you won't know and your customers know even less.
C
coradia
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
haha what makes one qualified in plumbing? would that be the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship and the years gained working or would that be the quick route to qualifications with 5 day courses?
haha what makes one qualified in plumbing? would that be the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship and the years gained working or would that be the quick route to qualifications with 5 day courses?
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
the recognised qualification for plumbers NVQ2 minimum for basic or NVQ3 for adavnced, simple
the recognised qualification for plumbers NVQ2 minimum for basic or NVQ3 for adavnced, simple
P
plumbster3456
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
yes and along with the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship without this if it has only taken you for instance to do either above in 6 weeks not qualified even with certificates.
you must be jib registered to be industry recognised as qualified.
Try getting a job with even the full nvq or svq without experience NO CHANCE.
yes and along with the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship without this if it has only taken you for instance to do either above in 6 weeks not qualified even with certificates.
you must be jib registered to be industry recognised as qualified.
Try getting a job with even the full nvq or svq without experience NO CHANCE.
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
you cannot get an NVQ without experience??????? are you getting mixed up with a tech cert?
you cannot get an NVQ without experience??????? are you getting mixed up with a tech cert?
P
plumbster3456
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
SORRY FUZZY ONLY MENTIONED BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS TALKING ABOUT 5 DAYS COURSES TO GET QUALIFIED ( THINK IT WAS CORADIA) surely to god this cant be true.
I know not everyone does 4 and 5 years but at least it has taken some a year or two.
If you did phone up the jib and ask they would say only recognised is the ones who have done apprenticeships may not be 100% the right way but it is there way
SORRY FUZZY ONLY MENTIONED BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS TALKING ABOUT 5 DAYS COURSES TO GET QUALIFIED ( THINK IT WAS CORADIA) surely to god this cant be true.
I know not everyone does 4 and 5 years but at least it has taken some a year or two.
If you did phone up the jib and ask they would say only recognised is the ones who have done apprenticeships may not be 100% the right way but it is there way
S
shorticus
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
the uk government only licence those things that are deemed as dangerous or a risk to the insurance companies, note, not deemed as a risk to people or property per se, but the claim against ‘them’ that might follow an occurrence. Driving a car, driving a lorry, installing gas blah blah blah are the things that the insurance companies get wobbly knee’s about, if plumbing goes wrong you get wet, you don't drown, ergo no major fiscal loss, ergo no licence needed. Wrong!? I absolutely agree, however I'm just commentating.
the uk government only licence those things that are deemed as dangerous or a risk to the insurance companies, note, not deemed as a risk to people or property per se, but the claim against ‘them’ that might follow an occurrence. Driving a car, driving a lorry, installing gas blah blah blah are the things that the insurance companies get wobbly knee’s about, if plumbing goes wrong you get wet, you don't drown, ergo no major fiscal loss, ergo no licence needed. Wrong!? I absolutely agree, however I'm just commentating.
T
that bloke.
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
you can do a lot of damage to someones property if you take on something that you dont know how to follow through.
i think you either need to be qualified or experienced through on the job training to do general plumbing , or both.
i think a qualification is just something to prove you are accually learning with on the job training, plumbing shouldnt solely be taught at college. on the job will tell you how to do things , college will tell you why they are done that way.
you can do a lot of damage to someones property if you take on something that you dont know how to follow through.
i think you either need to be qualified or experienced through on the job training to do general plumbing , or both.
i think a qualification is just something to prove you are accually learning with on the job training, plumbing shouldnt solely be taught at college. on the job will tell you how to do things , college will tell you why they are done that way.
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
you cannot get the qualification solely from college, as i keep putting, so why not recognise the nvq as competence? no need for addition hoops to jump through
T
that bloke.
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
i thought the nvq can be recognition of competence? although we could keep running round in circles and say some people with an nvq shouldn't be let loose in a customers house and some people without any qualifications could in fact be very competent.
perhaps plumbing jobs shoulod be spot and randomly inspected by a main body of inspectors and if the work is not up to scratch or doesnt comply with current regs then they should have the ability to dish out some kind of punishment.
in fairness people who work with gas or unvented should have a ticket but general plumbing? if you can do it and do it properly , have a knowledge of the regs required and the correct insurance etc then i see no need for an nvq. you could argue that people who work with food should have a ticket to prove they know how to wash their hands every time they use the toilet, does that gardener have a licence for that ride on mower or that spade? where do you draw the line? can you provide your customers with a crb check to make sure your not really a mugger disguised as a plumber?
i thought the nvq can be recognition of competence? although we could keep running round in circles and say some people with an nvq shouldn't be let loose in a customers house and some people without any qualifications could in fact be very competent.
perhaps plumbing jobs shoulod be spot and randomly inspected by a main body of inspectors and if the work is not up to scratch or doesnt comply with current regs then they should have the ability to dish out some kind of punishment.
in fairness people who work with gas or unvented should have a ticket but general plumbing? if you can do it and do it properly , have a knowledge of the regs required and the correct insurance etc then i see no need for an nvq. you could argue that people who work with food should have a ticket to prove they know how to wash their hands every time they use the toilet, does that gardener have a licence for that ride on mower or that spade? where do you draw the line? can you provide your customers with a crb check to make sure your not really a mugger disguised as a plumber?
S
smudger
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
I definitely think that a tradesperson should be properly qualified (and assessed) to carry out work. Do you think it would work if all tradespeople (not just plumbers) had to be a member of an approved scheme? I actually think it is too easy to get the qualifications and they are currently no proof of competance, but that's a different issue.
I definitely think that a tradesperson should be properly qualified (and assessed) to carry out work. Do you think it would work if all tradespeople (not just plumbers) had to be a member of an approved scheme? I actually think it is too easy to get the qualifications and they are currently no proof of competance, but that's a different issue.
H
Hybrid
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
The NVQ 2 can't be a measure of competence because it only requires proof of very basic plumbing skills. There's no mandatory requirement to prove competence on heating systems, installation of cylinders, installation of storage tanks etc.
If you install a couple of bathrooms, change a couple of soil stacks and do some basic plumbing maintenance you have all the evidence needed to complete the portfolio.
The NVQ 3 is mostly concerned with the planning of works and customer service with two small tasks involving commissioning a heating and hot water system.
There's a huge gap in what's required to become qualified and what's required to do the job.
EDIT: sorry smudger, just read your post which says everything I was trying to say.
The NVQ 2 can't be a measure of competence because it only requires proof of very basic plumbing skills. There's no mandatory requirement to prove competence on heating systems, installation of cylinders, installation of storage tanks etc.
If you install a couple of bathrooms, change a couple of soil stacks and do some basic plumbing maintenance you have all the evidence needed to complete the portfolio.
The NVQ 3 is mostly concerned with the planning of works and customer service with two small tasks involving commissioning a heating and hot water system.
There's a huge gap in what's required to become qualified and what's required to do the job.
EDIT: sorry smudger, just read your post which says everything I was trying to say.
F
fuzzy
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
if you think this than you say the qualificaton isnt fit for purpose. if a full qual doesnt satisfy you then why would a small card and registration? even if an inspector checked the odd job?
if you think this than you say the qualificaton isnt fit for purpose. if a full qual doesnt satisfy you then why would a small card and registration? even if an inspector checked the odd job?
S
shorticus
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
I'm old school so please forgive my ignorance on this one, how long does an nvq 2 or 3 take to aquire, are they day release, block release or intensive training schemes?
I'm old school so please forgive my ignorance on this one, how long does an nvq 2 or 3 take to aquire, are they day release, block release or intensive training schemes?
T
tamz
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Depends how deep your pockets are these days!
Depends how deep your pockets are these days!
S
shorticus
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
@Tamz, so if someone wanted to fast-track and had the cash how quickly could they qualify?
@Tamz, so if someone wanted to fast-track and had the cash how quickly could they qualify?
T
tamz
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Haven't a clue. A lot quicker than it took me. Paper qualified and couldn't plumb in a washing machine after 4, 6, 8 weeks?
Personally i think it is a disgrace.
Haven't a clue. A lot quicker than it took me. Paper qualified and couldn't plumb in a washing machine after 4, 6, 8 weeks?
Personally i think it is a disgrace.
S
shorticus
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
as I said I'm old school, C&G+advanced craft, took three years and even then I was still called 'the boy' ah such fond memories lol.
I've no idea what the nvq is all about, are there no indentured apprenticeships now?
as I said I'm old school, C&G+advanced craft, took three years and even then I was still called 'the boy' ah such fond memories lol.
I've no idea what the nvq is all about, are there no indentured apprenticeships now?
T
tamz
Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon
Yes, for the selected few😉
Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction 😕 and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice 🙂
Yes, for the selected few😉
Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction 😕 and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice 🙂
Official Sponsors of Plumbers Talk
Reply to the thread, titled "should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?" which is posted in Gaining Plumbing Experience on Plumbers Forums.
Similar plumbing topics
We recommend City Plumbing Supplies, BES, and Plumbing Superstore for all plumbing supplies.
