flue regs

[buckley plumb]

can someone tell me if the flue regs have changed . I called gas safe last year as a balanced flue was only 100mm from a door opening and was told its always been like that do a room test and fit carbon monoxide alarm and class as ntcs . someone called tonight as british gas wont pass their boiler balanced flue baxi as its 275mm from an opening window and manual says 600mm . customer asked them if he could change window for non opening frame and they said it still would not pass .

 

[mountainman]

The manufacturer's instructions supercede all other regulations. Either gas safe were misinterpreted or wrong.

 

[Atouchofgas]

Natural draught needs 300mm from fabric opening of building so technically it's Ntc even if they change the window

 

[buckley plumb]

Natural draught needs 300mm from fabric opening of building so technically it's Ntc even if they change the window

my thought as if they change window its not an opening . we cant ar them all

 

[Matt06]

Natural draught is 300 - 600 depending out output i thought ??

300mm for fan ?

 

[AlexGas]

can someone tell me if the flue regs have changed.

BS 5440-1:2008 is still current standard, nothing new.

And it's - Flueing and ventilation for gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net (1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases). Specification for installation of gas appliances to chimneys and for maintenance of chimneys

 

[AlexGas]

my thought as if they change window its not an opening . we cant ar them all

One could screw up the window or make it non-openable, but, very big BUT… Have a look at this:

BBC News - Cornwall engineer guilty of hotel death safety breach

It’s not worth it.

 

[bigads28]

can someone tell me if the flue regs have changed . I called gas safe last year as a balanced flue was only 100mm from a door opening and was told its always been like that do a room test and fit carbon monoxide alarm and class as ntcs . someone called tonight as british gas wont pass their boiler balanced flue baxi as its 275mm from an opening window and manual says 600mm . customer asked them if he could change window for non opening frame and they said it still would not pass .

Gas Safe were wrong, MI's are what you use. That situation is NCS anyway, so would still be allowed onto a BG contract. If it's a balanced flue boiler it must be old as heck and be shy on parts, that's probably more reason they didn't take it on.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Don't know what's going to happen when they do away with NTC in the near future, understand it' in the pipeline only going to be AR/ID

 

[newcastle phill]

Ntc is a bloody waste of time and muddys the water imho.

Defects should be actionable or not.
This whole ntc ....'its not right but your ok to leave it but you might want to think about having it done' just gives mixed messages.

And regarding AR - IF I were in charge it would be cap the bloody lot.

Whats the real material point of Ar and id.


personally and logically id get rid of the term ID.

I would only have 1 classification of everything as AR with a new cap off policy lol

Cos if its at risk of killing you then we turn the bloody thing off anyway thats good enough for me. Lol

 

[jtsplumbing]

Ntc is a bloody waste of time and muddys the water imho.

Defects should be actionable or not.
This whole ntc ....'its not right but your ok to leave it but you might want to think about having it done' just gives mixed messages.

And regarding AR - IF I were in charge it would be cap the bloody lot.

Whats the real material point of Ar and id.


personally and logically id get rid of the term ID.

I would only have 1 classification of everything as AR with a new cap off policy lol

Cos if its at risk of killing you then we turn the bloody thing off anyway thats good enough for me. Lol

OMG someone's got out the wrong side of the bed this morning !! :cuss:

 

[newcastle phill]

You looking at me punk ???

Hehe

 

[Dotty]

Ntc is a bloody waste of time and muddys the water imho.

Defects should be actionable or not.
This whole ntc ....'its not right but your ok to leave it but you might want to think about having it done' just gives mixed messages.

And regarding AR - IF I were in charge it would be cap the bloody lot.

Whats the real material point of Ar and id.


personally and logically id get rid of the term ID.

I would only have 1 classification of everything as AR with a new cap off policy lol

Cos if its at risk of killing you then we turn the bloody thing off anyway thats good enough for me. Lol

I would argue that AR is the one that's a waste of time. NCS I understand, covers installations that were put in according to the regs at the time and are safe. And ID is a given.

 

[newcastle phill]

Yes but my point is that

AR is at risk of killing you so we turn it off.

ID is probably gonna kill you or could and we cap it off.

Sorry but in my book AR should be enough, the risk of killing you should be enough and the minimum threshold should be set at that for capping off. And then ID becomes irrelevant. As AR encompasses ID......

 

[Dotty]

So, basically we're arguing the same point, NCS then cap off (AR, ID or whatever you want to call it) and these would be the only two categories. In complete agreement there.

 

[GrahamM]

can someone tell me if the flue regs have changed . I called gas safe last year as a balanced flue was only 100mm from a door opening and was told its always been like that do a room test and fit carbon monoxide alarm and class as ntcs . someone called tonight as british gas wont pass their boiler balanced flue baxi as its 275mm from an opening window and manual says 600mm . customer asked them if he could change window for non opening frame and they said it still would not pass .

I know for a fact that so called Engineers manager would not be very happy if found out this guy was turning away business for something like this. They will only now refuse a clear AR situation that is not practicably rectifiable on a new contract.

Don't know what's going to happen when they do away with NTC in the near future, understand it' in the pipeline only going to be AR/ID

Just going to be more or less the same but without the documentation. Will still be informing customer that not fitted to MI etc etc.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

natural draught is 300 - 600 depending out output i thought ??

300mm for fan ?

yes,depends on kw/btu rating

 

[kirkgas]

Jtsplumbing, it's not confirmed yet, but my understanding is that NCS will not be part of the IUP, as it's confusing customers, as it's NCS, (ie was perfectly fine when put in but not now as regs have changed, and therefore doesn't really need to be upgraded, but customer can if they want) it shouldn't be part of the IUP as it isn't unsafe, however there will still be the requirement to advise the customer that it's NCS, only AR and ID will be part of the paperwork for reporting, so in effect the only difference is the way we advise people that something is NCS, which seems fine as NCS seems to reduce the seriousness of the IUP
Newcastle Phil, I don't agree about AR & ID being the same, ID gas leak or spillage, AR corrosion on pipe that might leak later, or 90 degree bends and horizontal open flue increasing the RISK of spillage, but might never spill, so if AR we advise they don't use it just in case, if ID it must go off

 

[stevetheplumber]

ive said this before ar is what should go all it does is pass the responsibility from a skilled individual ,the engineer to an unskilled individual the tennant or owner managers on big service contracts love it engineer turns of tennant turns back on, buck passed
i actually prefer the term potentially dangerous

 

[Dotty]

ive said this before ar is what should go all it does is pass the responsibility from a skilled individual ,the engineer to an unskilled individual the tennant or owner managers on big service contracts love it engineer turns of tennant turns back on, buck passed
i actually prefer the term potentially dangerous

It's not every day I agree with you Steve but you're on the money here mate.

 

[gasmanrob]

Never mind potentially dangerous or immediately dangerous. The word dangerous isn't stern enough or descriptive enough to alert people to the inherit risk of using an appliance under those categories jumping out of a plane, driving whilst using a mobile phone, swimming with sharks and shopping with plumb centre are all dangerous but people do those things everyday.

However potentialy leathal and and leathal if opperated in my mind stirs related images and thoughts that would be enough to alert people to the real risk of using such an appliance and hopefully put the fear of the almighty into them

 

[newcastle phill]

Jtsplumbing, it's not confirmed yet, but my understanding is that NCS will not be part of the IUP, as it's confusing customers, as it's NCS, (ie was perfectly fine when put in but not now as regs have changed, and therefore doesn't really need to be upgraded, but customer can if they want) it shouldn't be part of the IUP as it isn't unsafe, however there will still be the requirement to advise the customer that it's NCS, only AR and ID will be part of the paperwork for reporting, so in effect the only difference is the way we advise people that something is NCS, which seems fine as NCS seems to reduce the seriousness of the IUP
Newcastle Phil, I don't agree about AR & ID being the same, ID gas leak or spillage, AR corrosion on pipe that might leak later, or 90 degree bends and horizontal open flue increasing the RISK of spillage, but might never spill, so if AR we advise they don't use it just in case, if ID it must go off

Yes but my point is in each case we turn it off (inc cap) until its put right what sort of makes the distinction a waste of time.
We may aswell just have the one course of action based on the lower risk threshold.

 

[Dotty]

Taking on board what Rob said I've modified my opinion slightly. The two categories should be

NCS

And

IYTTOIWFKY.

 

[GrahamM]

So let me get this straight. Some of you are advocating getting rid of AR and more or less jumping straight to ID?
For example. 70% combustion ventilation & flues in voids with no inspection of joints should be cut & capped? :confused5:

 

[buckley plumb]

spoke to gas safe today and they say ntcs its been like that for years do room test and co alarm to cover me

 

[arran197]

Yes, the flue too close to an opening is either ID or NCS. If there are pocs entering through the opening then it's ID. If you can test and find that there are no pocs entering, then it's just Ncs.

In all honest, if AR were made to be cut and cap, id I'd be extremely unhappy. Having to carry round 22mm caps for every flue that is missing a clip is over kill. It's not always a case of capping the meter, the customer might have a cooker and fire they want to use whilst the boiler is off or whatever. So you cut the gas pipe, have to do a tt, then have to return and connect the gas back up when you do the repair. What's the point? Extra hassle and more to go wrong. Turn the appliance off, isolate at the tap and remove the fuse from the spur, job done. If the customer decides to put it back on after all that then they're the idiot and the making a rod for their own back.

 

[mountainman]

Yes, the flue too close to an opening is either ID or NCS. If there are pocs entering through the opening then it's ID. If you can test and find that there are no pocs entering, then it's just Ncs.

In all honest, if AR were made to be cut and cap, id I'd be extremely unhappy. Having to carry round 22mm caps for every flue that is missing a clip is over kill. It's not always a case of capping the meter, the customer might have a cooker and fire they want to use whilst the boiler is off or whatever. So you cut the gas pipe, have to do a tt, then have to return and connect the gas back up when you do the repair. What's the point? Extra hassle and more to go wrong. Turn the appliance off, isolate at the tap and remove the fuse from the spur, job done. If the customer decides to put it back on after all that then they're the idiot and the making a rod for their own back.

You speak common sense, but when does common sense apply to regulations?

 

[arran197]

Thanks. Imo, just change the At Risk to Potentially Dangerous. Immediately Dangerous should be Extremely Dangerous, just so the customers know there's a danger. Jo public don't know what at risk and immediately dangerous mean, that's the issue. It sounds too technical and doesn't get the message across.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

If someone doesnt know the meaning of 'immediately dangerous' after having it explained, wouldn't they be better off out of the gene pool?

 

[Matt06]

Surely if the appliance is not installed to MIs then that would be At Risk And if the wind changes from the day you carried out a room test then POCs can enter the property, i had a few the other day similar to this by the sounds , 3-4 natural draft water heaters directly under windows etc i told him i would not certificate them but he found someone that would, To my mind if they are not even installed to MIs how can it not be AR or Potentially dangerous ? and should be rectified

These were only fitted 2-3 years ago 1 was 1 year old ,

 

[arran197]

That's the regs. I agree with you.

 

[Ermintrude]

I haven't got a warning pad just loads of caps and discs