Gas Rating dfe with no data plate?

[Hobo128]

Went to a dfe service the other day and found that there was no MI or data badge on the fire. So i had to assess the installation against the requirment of the current and reletive british standard regs.

Measured hearth requirments: Ok
Measure flue diameter/height against builders opening:Ok
Checked for adequit ventilation ( Document j part 3.11 100cm2): Ok
Visually inspected flue :Ok
Flue flow test:Ok
Took note of position of coals and cleaned them and burner then replaced:Ok
Checked FSD (29 second fail safe):Ok
Checked working pressure at meter 22.5
Checked working pressure at appliance 21.5:Ok
Spillage test as stated using method from Essential gas safety:Ok
Then finally i gas rated it (3600x10.76x21/120=6.77kwgross)

My question is that is there any point me gas rating this appliance without having a data badge or Mi or should i have just capped the appliance straight away even though everything seems in good working order?

 

[diamondgas]

No worries in my opinion Hobo128 ... NO reason to cap unless it's spilling fumes or leaking gas! The fact that it had to mi's meant you followed the next best procedures and it passed, especially having enough ventilation! No MI's is a pain but only limits what we can do safely! My only concern in these situations is having to remove the coals to get the fire out of the opening! No Mi's means I can't! IMO 🙂

 

[kirkgas]

Went to a dfe service the other day and found that there was no MI or data badge on the fire. So i had to assess the installation against the requirment of the current and reletive british standard regs.

Measured hearth requirments: Ok
Measure flue diameter/height against builders opening:Ok
Checked for adequit ventilation ( Document j part 3.11 100cm2): Ok
Visually inspected flue :Ok
Flue flow test:Ok
Took note of position of coals and cleaned them and burner then replaced:Ok
Checked FSD (29 second fail safe):Ok
Checked working pressure at meter 22.5
Checked working pressure at appliance 21.5:Ok
Spillage test as stated using method from Essential gas safety:Ok
Then finally i gas rated it (3600x10.76x21/120=6.77kwgross)

My question is that is there any point me gas rating this appliance without having a data badge or Mi or should i have just capped the appliance straight away even though everything seems in good working order?

without relevant MI or product knowledge you cant mark the test results as Ok as you have nothing to confirm they are ok, generic testing procedures and methods "might" be ok but thats my point without the MI "might" isnt good enough, simple question i ask in this situation "can you 100% guarantee that it is working safely, and would you risk your liberty and reputation on what you have written"? as per gas forms its a tick box answer YES or NO, no room for ifs, buts or maybes, you have calculated the HI as per a calculation we all know but without the MI whats the point as you cant confirm it is right or not, ok at 6kw we all know it sounds about right, but what if the injector is wrong and it should be more/less, you carefully removed and replaced coals, as per the way my wee mum put them back a few months ago (without MI) etc etc

 

[dancinplumba]

kirkgas is 100% right imo (as always 🙂 )
what should coals position be ?

 

[plumbdoctor]

no instructions for coals its at least at risk

 

[glenno1]

I tend to use the internet (netbook,phone,laptop etc)and go to manufacturers website and that usually gets me the info i need

 

[yo1]

if all the generic tests passed, what reasons could you give for it being unsafe too use? and would it not pass a cp12 as it is operating safely at the time of testing?

 

[Atouchofgas]

I agree with kirkgas and IMHO I would not touch the fire as you do not know what the hi is meant to be. I have dealt with dfe from 6kw to 15kw, so how can you tell which hi this is without MI or data badge. I would advise cust to replace.

 

[yo1]

I agree also, you will never be able to check the hi is correct.. but imho I would not leave it with out performing checks on it if I was there to inspect it and did not have mi's.

 

[diamondgas]

Personally as long as you have proved that the poc are being removed and there is adequate ventilation I do not see a problem! I've come across 20yr old grate fires which are just a gas tap connected to a coil of pipe with slots under a bed of vermiculite with coals scattered above & no fsd! Expensive to run for sure but that's how they were made!

Are folk saying here that they'd At Risk an appliance and even advise them to get something new just because they've never seen one before? For sure be safe and advise the customer of YOUR issue. However it is entirely up to the customer what course of action you take next. They could well phone the manufacturers to maintain their appliance and thus save themselves the cost of replacement! Our ignorance is not an excuse to leave people without heating IMHO.

In my experience there are more appliances out there without mi's readily available than with! When I've asked customers for mi's they give me that blank look as if I'm nuts!! I'm not saying jump in Willey nilly and throw the coals back on scatter effect there are tests that can be carried out though that can guarantee that on the day of testing, the appliance was working safely IMO.

GIUSP 3.2 states "When assessing whether an existing appliance is installed correctly, where practicable, the operative should in the first instance consult the manufacturer's instructions ... Where the mi's for the appliance are not available an assessment of the installation against requirements of the current versions of installation standards should be carried out." It goes on to mention working "... within the limits of the operatives' competencies." No where does it say if you haven't got the mi's turn it off and recommend a replacement 🙂

 

[desrob]

Personally as long as you have proved that the poc are being removed and there is adequate ventilation I do not see a problem! I've come across 20yr old grate fires which are just a gas tap connected to a coil of pipe with slots under a bed of vermiculite with coals scattered above & no fsd! Expensive to run for sure but that's how they were made!

Are folk saying here that they'd At Risk an appliance and even advise them to get something new just because they've never seen one before? For sure be safe and advise the customer of YOUR issue. However it is entirely up to the customer what course of action you take next. They could well phone the manufacturers to maintain their appliance and thus save themselves the cost of replacement! Our ignorance is not an excuse to leave people without heating IMHO.

In my experience there are more appliances out there without mi's readily available than with! When I've asked customers for mi's they give me that blank look as if I'm nuts!! I'm not saying jump in Willey nilly and throw the coals back on scatter effect there are tests that can be carried out though that can guarantee that on the day of testing, the appliance was working safely IMO.

GIUSP 3.2 states "When assessing whether an existing appliance is installed correctly, where practicable, the operative should in the first instance consult the manufacturer's instructions ... Where the mi's for the appliance are not available an assessment of the installation against requirements of the current versions of installation standards should be carried out." It goes on to mention working "... within the limits of the operatives' competencies." No where does it say if you haven't got the mi's turn it off and recommend a replacement 🙂

how can you 100% confirm you av enuf ventilation without mi

 

[diamondgas]

how can you 100% confirm you av enuf ventilation without mi

DGF = 100cmsq regardless of it's gas rate does it not? But you could gas rate it and work out whether it need more than that yeh?

I think I've gone off on a one actually Desrob as the ops original question has been answered IMO....

regards ventilation though! Mi's give you guidance, you could actually need more than the mi's recomendations. All depends on other factors such as flueing and termination! 🙂

 

[warrington]

If technical information cannot be obtained the operative will be unable to comply with regulation 26(9)(C). Where the appliance's performance is unsatisfactory the appliance must be regarded as Immediately Dangerous and the appropriate action taken.

 

[GrahamM]

If you cannot confirm the appliance is working within it's safe operational limits, it is at the very least got to be left 'AR'.

Come on now! This is bread & butter!

 

[diamondgas]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real 🙂 By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

 

[GrahamM]

Who said anything about capping? "AT-RISK"!

You have covered yourself and acted responsibly within the regulations.

Anything less when you cannot confirm the safe operational limits of the appliance is poor in my opinion.

 

[dancinplumba]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real 🙂 By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible
person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

source of heat with a dfe !!! you avin a larf DG lol

 

[diamondgas]

Who said anything about capping? "AT-RISK"!

You have covered yourself and acted responsibly within the regulations.

Anything less when you cannot confirm the safe operational limits of the appliance is poor in my opinion.

I wasn't getting at you mate ... in my experience you do not touch what you do not feel compitent to work on, period! Give it a visual and explain to the responsible person the limits you have without the neccessary info available and that is all you need do! Don't start is what I am saying! Even with a CP12 you are not responsible for the instalation or the appliance chosen! You cannot determine whether it is safe or not so you leave it well alone and inform! How can you At Risk something when you do not know if its contravening anything?

 

[diamondgas]

source of heat with a dfe !!! you avin a larf DG lol

lol ... well if the flue's blocked their not complaining!! Well maybe about the headaches 🙂 Budgie's probably on it's back in its cage though..........poor thing!

 

[GrahamM]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

 

[dancinplumba]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

wouldnt even do flue flow or spill, its ar
imo

 

[GrahamM]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

 

[diamondgas]

My take on it.
I cannot remove coals as I cannot confirm they are correct position. I do not even know if they are all present. I also cannot confirm safe operation of appliance as do not know BP/gas rate figures.
Flue flow ok, spill good.

I must then leave it At-risk as I cannot confirm it is operating within safe limits.

I wouldn't disagree that erring on the side of caution will not be the wrong decision GrahamM... However why even start work on something you have no knowledge of or any mi's for guidance? When asked on the paperwork did you work on it the answer will be 'NO' in the commments you write something along the lines of 'no mi's or knowledge of the appliance, visual check only!' Inform the responsible person!

 

[warrington]

Today i had my first visit from gas safe, and we were talking about regulation 26.9 and subject came to exactly this situation. As i posted before, without MI or data unable to comply 26.9.C! It states in BPEC domestic gas safety manual mod 10 page 4!
And inspector said you can't service the appliance because of 26.9.C. It is not just operating pressure or heat input, it is also coals here.
So i think if you don't want to At-risk or ID the appliance ( depends on how satisfactory ) , best thing is not to get the job and explain the customer. Because at the end of the day , there is engineers name and signature on the service .

 

[diamondgas]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

That makes perfectly good safe working practice IMO ... I've said to many a custard that I cannot work on their appliance but will check to see if it is at least clearing the fumes!

 

[kirkgas]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

 

[GrahamM]

I have seen enough fires by many manufactures to at least have a general idea where to take a basic spillage from the various formats.

This gives me a general indication, in the absence of MI's, in my professional opinion if the flue is at least drawing.
Bearing in mind I have no MI's to carry out a proper service- this is only a basic safety check and if in my professional opinion the spill is ok I will leave the fire as AR and inform customer that MI's will need to be procured for full service to be carried out.

In my opinion this is the very least that should be done.

 

[dancinplumba]

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

once again 100% with kirkgas on this

 

[diamondgas]

Anyone heard of a DGI label? Don't Get Involved! Personally I take each circumstance on its merits; age of appliance, observation of its surroundings and the customer using it or not as the case may be. In other words give it a visual! Maybe familiarity breeds contempt in my case *shrug* I still struggle to get my head around turning something off because of my lack of knowledge though? These incidences are few and far between in my experience so will not dwell to much TBH ... I do not disagree with you regards At Risking being the safest approach to adopt but what is the appliance at risk of ... An LFE that needs removing to inspect catchment space etc I can understand AR, but a DGF that sits in front of a chair brick and an open Chimney sucking like a Dyson ... hmmmm!

 

[dancinplumba]

liking sig DG

 

[glenno1]

IMO on this the engineer at the scene has to leave that property and occupants safe by law so if he suspects it to be unsafe he should carry out whatever work to make safe.So if he has no paper work to go by he may have to cap off

 

[GrahamM]

IMO on this the engineer at the scene has to leave that property and occupants safe by law so if he suspects it to be unsafe he should carry out whatever work to make safe.So if he has no paper work to go by he may have to cap off

I agree with you to a point.

I'm with you on the duty of care.

But if you suspect something is not correct or have no way to confirm it is correct, you can only advise of the risk and leave it AR.

You cannot ID an appliance because you suspect it may be unsafe. Only if you know it is unsafe can you cut & cap.

If you suspect it may be unsafe it is AR.

 

[GQuigley67]

i would AR it myself, when working on Scottish Gas contract they want you to AR every appliance that doesnt have MIs or Data Badge and do spillage tests on every fire. I wouldnt AR it myself if it had a data badge as i could confirm it was working safely but with neither I would feel better classing it as AR. We are only turning off appliance and attaching label, nothing stopping customer from turning appliance back on

 

[kirkgas]

Anyone heard of a DGI label? Don't Get Involved! Personally I take each circumstance on its merits; age of appliance, observation of its surroundings and the customer using it or not as the case may be. In other words give it a visual! Maybe familiarity breeds contempt in my case *shrug* I still struggle to get my head around turning something off because of my lack of knowledge though? These incidences are few and far between in my experience so will not dwell to much TBH ... I do not disagree with you regards At Risking being the safest approach to adopt but what is the appliance at risk of ... An LFE that needs removing to inspect catchment space etc I can understand AR, but a DGF that sits in front of a chair brick and an open Chimney sucking like a Dyson ... hmmmm!

brilliant DGI LABEL, i think there is a market there for printing some of them up

 

[kirkgas]

there is a specific fire in an assessment room ( i cant remember the actual make/model, but doesnt matter) which requires a spillage test to be carried out 50mm from the right hand side of the canopy, without reading the MI and using generic knowledge and experience everyone would run a smoke match along the front of the canopy, this would be wrong and could lead to a wrong statement being made about its safety, and has caught out plenty of guys doing their ACS

 

[AmritPedersen]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real 🙂 By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

Well diamongas, a fair point about removing someone's sole source of heat. However, I usually come across these dfe's when they're decorative & supplementary. That's why I agree with the others who say its dodgy to work on them. Not just for your professional safety, but your clients'.

 

[fewkes]

as far as i believe, if there are no MI's or date plate there is no way to confirm your readings and certainly no way to confirm the coals are installed correctly(they may have been rong before you attended), this would lead me to leave the fire as AR, explain the risks to the customer and its then their decision to use the fire or not. but your arse is covered.

 

[combo]

God knows what a member of the public thinks when reading this thread....sorry to bring it back :death:

 

[combo]

The reason I posted on this thread was because I was wondering whether we ever got to bottom of working on an appliance without manufacturers instructions.....Can you or can't you ?? I see so many posts on this forum where there never seems to be a 'definite' answer, which I find bizarre in a industry so heavily ( !!!! ) regulated.

 

[acecharly]

My tutor may have been wrong after 30 years in the trade but isn't the first thing you do before service or fitting a gas fire .....read the MI.

 

[combo]

It's a good job that tenants and customers always have a copy of their MI's to hand then, otherwise there'd be an awful lot of illegal work going on.

 

[Ermintrude]

Or you have the info already? Boy Scouts always be prepared!

 

[combo]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

 

[Ermintrude]

Hummmmmm

 

[Ray Stafford]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

You have to watch out for the unintended consequences.

What would happen to a lot of old appliances? Would the customer have them replaced if the engineer refused to service them? Or would they just leave them, year after year, to deteriorate until lethal?

I suspect the latter.

 

[stevetheplumber]

im still of the opinion that the AR classification is a cop out passing the resposibility from trained professional to tennant/customer we have to AR anything that we cant service or inspect vailant flues without screws flues in flats where theres no access to the roof

 

[combo]

It's just ridiculous ! Its supposed to be a professional technical job i.e you use your skills and experience.....but you might a coal the wrong way round or be a few mm out on the specified spillage point, so you cant do it. Don't get me wrong, if the rule is - walk away without MI's, fine but they should be out making it absolutely clear and enforcing it.

 

[village idiot]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

 

[combo]

I do have a lappy and there's some fires on there ( ill have to try and update ). Im hoping to get back into servicing//CP12's soon ( agency work ) , Im just wondering what these ppl are gonna say if your refusing to service appliances.

 

[Ermintrude]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy

 

[village idiot]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy

you can say that again. They give yu this vague look and think you must be daft. ''You are the Engineer, isn't it? What did you think you were coming here to do without the MI?''

As far as they are concerned, it is your responsibility to have the manual for their appliance.
Sounds strange, but that's how they see it. And I can see their point of view. I have had situations where an old boiler manual could not be located. I had to order one from manufacturer and got it within four days. At least, when I went round to service the boiler, I was in my element

 

[kirkgas]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

The reason you can't have a statement like this is because I can work on firegem visa fire and baxi 401 BBU as two good examples of appliances I know inside out, and have worked on and fitted many 100's of them, therefore I don't need the MI, but I do need MI for other appliances, THE STATEMENT IS ABOUT HAVING OR KNOWING THE RELEVANT INFO, YOU CANNOT GUESS OR SURMISE,

 

[village idiot]

The way the homeowner sees it: If you're Gas Safe (Engineer), then by right, you k ow all about Gas Appliances and have all the relevant information embedded into your brain. And to he honest, I can appreciate their point of view. If you take your car to a mechanic, you do not expect them to tell you your car will be left to one side till they can find the relevant instructions? You rely in the belief that they are knowledgable enough to use whatever means they have to diagnose and repair the car/van.
As the Engineer, it is my opinion that, you have the responsibility to have the relevant MI Manuals at your disposal.
I don't know of any regulation that says you must attend and service a boiler on a particular day because the occupant wants it serviced? Get as much information from the customer, get the manual and familiarise yourself with the appliance, then visit and have a 'walk in the park'.
Besides, even if the occupant tells you they have the manual, I still go on the net, download the manual and familiarise myself with it (I do this if its a boiler I'm not familiar with).

 

[kirkgas]

I don't do many jobs now, but like others have said, I download the MI first, I've now got 1000's from various sources, but if I don't have what I want I go and get it first, but I also email it to the customer so they have it for the next engineer, ok not something I would do for everyone, but any jobs I do now are for family, friends, or their family etc so I don't mind giving them the instructions for later

 

[stevetheplumber]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

 

[combo]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

 

[village idiot]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

Las far as subscriptions for manuals go, I have none, but always find what I want most of the time. As I've said earlier, for those I cannot find, I phone/mail the manufacturer and they either mail me a copy or send one by post.
If it comes to what you say that there's no way I can get the manual, then from my point of view, I'll make my excuses and ask them to get someone else in. I personally do not like turning up on a job 'blindly' then start scratching my head and wondering what precisely to do as no relevant info.

 

[AWheating]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

I didn't realise the gas regs were different for social housing contracts 😉

if your turning up without the right info then how do you know what materials you need like burner seals etc...... I know on these contracts your expected to just do a fga reading and visual the cooker and get off. But then you need the instructions for the figures anyway don't you.

 

[GrahamM]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

Some of us may be on social housing/BG contract work and do not have that luxury of knowing what they are going to until 8am that day.
I come across at least 1 fire a week with no MI's and possibly no identification at all left on the fire.

 

[combo]

It's just a shame that you can't proceed with a service all because you don't have the instructions to show you the coal layout or the specific spillage point....I just think as a professional person we should be allowed to use our training and experience. There's millions of ppl who take their coals off and hoover them every month in UK - without MI's....but, alas, the gas regs are the gas regs

 

[combo]

That was the point of my initial posting on this

 

[newcastle phill]

Its a bit crazy.
Probably a good serviceable appliance that cant be serviced because of a lack of MI.
So because of that it stays in situ unserviced and continues to be used ?

 

[AWheating]

i dont see the problem. the appliance has been designed, tested and certified to work a specific way. Its been decided by the designer that it needs to be spillage tested at a certain point for a certain reason to comfirm its working. After all that effort why should you not want to check its working as designed? because you dont want to bother searching for the instructions is not a "professional" reason to not do your job correctly. If you cant get the instructions you cant do your job correctly. Your job tho is to ensure its working as designed.

 

[newcastle phill]

I think the issue is they arent sure how to test it as no MI to refer too or rating plate.

with no MI can the BS can be referred to re ventilation and the kw calculated from gas rate with usual poc test as simple dfe fire ???

 

[AWheating]

yes you can measure the gas rate, but how do you know its correct without manufacturers data? is the injector worn, or incorrectly sized? without manufacturers data you cant even confirm its designed for use with natural gas really.

 

[newcastle phill]

Indeed.
Just seems mad that although it cant be serviced it can continue to be used whatever hidden danger it may present ?

 

[albatross]

British Gas used to have a system classifying appliances as 'Category X, Y or Z' I can't remember it properly as it was rarely used and I left ten years ago and it may not apply now but it was for appliances that were not GC listed/so old there was no data/weird imports/pre gas conversion/lost data badge etc etc. Depending on the appliances lack of data it would fall into X,Y or Z category and there was a written down method for servicing it on a best endeavours basis.

Someone might remember it or is there any BG lads on here?

Saying that, these days if I could not cover my arris by having all the correct data I would cap it off. None of us get paid enough for a service to be taking chances with grey areas that could back fire on you if the worst happened and you were stood in court.

 

[Killy Bing]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

 

[Ermintrude]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

Some bigg bum fire doing 6m3 !

 

[northcarr]

If i go to do a cp12 and find an inset fire i alway's get the instruction's either from the owner or the net otherwise ar. I at least take it out to check the flue is clear and give it the one over,i find people never tend to service them. I went to do a cp12 last month and tennant informed me that the fire had not been out in 11yr (old victorian house) omg is it just me going overboard do you guys remove them on a cp12?.

 

[acecharly]

Ive allways avoided fires when I can but for a CP12 you are required to do exactly the same checks and tests as when installing. For example you may perform a spillage test which passes fine but without removing the fire how can you tell the flue is clear? If there is no liner how can you tell that no mortar is missing from the brickwork? or that any gas pipe inside the builders entrance is taped up?

In reality as soon as you do any work on a gas appliance you are then from that point responsible for it, so a lack of identification should mean you disconnect it and make it safe until it can be identified and tests performed on it to the MI.

 

[AWheating]

Ive allways avoided fires when I can but for a CP12 you are required to do exactly the same checks and tests as when installing. For example you may perform a spillage test which passes fine but without removing the fire how can you tell the flue is clear? If there is no liner how can you tell that no mortar is missing from the brickwork? or that any gas pipe inside the builders entrance is taped up?

In reality as soon as you do any work on a gas appliance you are then from that point responsible for it, so a lack of identification should mean you disconnect it and make it safe until it can be identified and tests performed on it to the MI.

agree ,gas regs 26.9


(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine—

(a)the effectiveness of any flue;

(b)the supply of combustion air;

(c)its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;

(d)its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning,


so without the instructions and data badge information you can not do this.

same can be said for visual risk assessment, which requires you to check adequate ventilation? writing visual checks only for an appliance you have not been asked to service is fine, but you need to do alittle more than just look.

 

[combo]

At the end of the day there's a limit to what you can do, no one can say that something is 100% safe, without checking every part of the system, all you can do is your best. Ppl working for councils have 10-12 services a day to get through, they can be houses with three/four appliances. The pay probably works about about tenner a property.
Whoever decided that AR appliances should be turned off, knew full well that most customers/tenants will turn them straight back on again once the engineer has gone, in fact in a strange way, you could say by servicing a fire without instructions and then labeling it as AR, your encouraging the customer to use it...they'll just see a freshly serviced/checked fire.

 

[AWheating]

the number of appliances should have no bearing on safety of the work done. If your rushing to the point of cutting corners then its prob best to find a better job. Ive worked on such contracts and know what some engineers do to get so many jobs done, id rather not be in the trade then put lives at risk.

 

[combo]

I remember being on a council contract, a whole estate with fire/bbu, Robby willy fire in back room and a cooker, I got it down to where I could get 6/7 done in a day...done properly - whole day and you go home covered in muck. You'd turn in the next morning to hand your jobs in and some other lads are handing 10/11/12 jobs in ( and bragging how they got off a 3pm )....there's no way they could possibly be doing them safely. This is why you'd go to back-boiler and there'd be a load of smoke pellets thrown in behind the burner from previous safety checks.....

 

[AWheating]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

 

[rpm]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

Same in my game AW, the guv used to moan at me for my site times until I asked him to compare my call back rate to others. Only problem is I now find I have to cover their backsides to the customers for the same pay!

 

[PlumbersMate]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

When you say strip and clean where needed, do you mean if combustion proves to be wrong, or do some boilers require it regardless?

 

[combo]

It depends what your doing, when i worked for BG, it was just an inspection ( so long as FG analysis was within tolerance )...but then they never claimed it was a service. Full manufacturers service involves cleaning H-E....

 

[Dotty]

Just spotted this. moved to private forum.