Gas Rating dfe with no data plate?

[AmritPedersen]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real 🙂 By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

Well diamongas, a fair point about removing someone's sole source of heat. However, I usually come across these dfe's when they're decorative & supplementary. That's why I agree with the others who say its dodgy to work on them. Not just for your professional safety, but your clients'.

 

[fewkes]

as far as i believe, if there are no MI's or date plate there is no way to confirm your readings and certainly no way to confirm the coals are installed correctly(they may have been rong before you attended), this would lead me to leave the fire as AR, explain the risks to the customer and its then their decision to use the fire or not. but your arse is covered.

 

[combo]

God knows what a member of the public thinks when reading this thread....sorry to bring it back :death:

 

[combo]

The reason I posted on this thread was because I was wondering whether we ever got to bottom of working on an appliance without manufacturers instructions.....Can you or can't you ?? I see so many posts on this forum where there never seems to be a 'definite' answer, which I find bizarre in a industry so heavily ( !!!! ) regulated.

 

[acecharly]

My tutor may have been wrong after 30 years in the trade but isn't the first thing you do before service or fitting a gas fire .....read the MI.

 

[combo]

It's a good job that tenants and customers always have a copy of their MI's to hand then, otherwise there'd be an awful lot of illegal work going on.

 

[Ermintrude]

Or you have the info already? Boy Scouts always be prepared!

 

[combo]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

 

[Ermintrude]

Hummmmmm

 

[Ray Stafford]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

You have to watch out for the unintended consequences.

What would happen to a lot of old appliances? Would the customer have them replaced if the engineer refused to service them? Or would they just leave them, year after year, to deteriorate until lethal?

I suspect the latter.

 

[stevetheplumber]

im still of the opinion that the AR classification is a cop out passing the resposibility from trained professional to tennant/customer we have to AR anything that we cant service or inspect vailant flues without screws flues in flats where theres no access to the roof

 

[combo]

It's just ridiculous ! Its supposed to be a professional technical job i.e you use your skills and experience.....but you might a coal the wrong way round or be a few mm out on the specified spillage point, so you cant do it. Don't get me wrong, if the rule is - walk away without MI's, fine but they should be out making it absolutely clear and enforcing it.

 

[village idiot]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

 

[combo]

I do have a lappy and there's some fires on there ( ill have to try and update ). Im hoping to get back into servicing//CP12's soon ( agency work ) , Im just wondering what these ppl are gonna say if your refusing to service appliances.

 

[Ermintrude]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy

 

[village idiot]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy

you can say that again. They give yu this vague look and think you must be daft. ''You are the Engineer, isn't it? What did you think you were coming here to do without the MI?''

As far as they are concerned, it is your responsibility to have the manual for their appliance.
Sounds strange, but that's how they see it. And I can see their point of view. I have had situations where an old boiler manual could not be located. I had to order one from manufacturer and got it within four days. At least, when I went round to service the boiler, I was in my element

 

[kirkgas]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

The reason you can't have a statement like this is because I can work on firegem visa fire and baxi 401 BBU as two good examples of appliances I know inside out, and have worked on and fitted many 100's of them, therefore I don't need the MI, but I do need MI for other appliances, THE STATEMENT IS ABOUT HAVING OR KNOWING THE RELEVANT INFO, YOU CANNOT GUESS OR SURMISE,

 

[village idiot]

The way the homeowner sees it: If you're Gas Safe (Engineer), then by right, you k ow all about Gas Appliances and have all the relevant information embedded into your brain. And to he honest, I can appreciate their point of view. If you take your car to a mechanic, you do not expect them to tell you your car will be left to one side till they can find the relevant instructions? You rely in the belief that they are knowledgable enough to use whatever means they have to diagnose and repair the car/van.
As the Engineer, it is my opinion that, you have the responsibility to have the relevant MI Manuals at your disposal.
I don't know of any regulation that says you must attend and service a boiler on a particular day because the occupant wants it serviced? Get as much information from the customer, get the manual and familiarise yourself with the appliance, then visit and have a 'walk in the park'.
Besides, even if the occupant tells you they have the manual, I still go on the net, download the manual and familiarise myself with it (I do this if its a boiler I'm not familiar with).

 

[kirkgas]

I don't do many jobs now, but like others have said, I download the MI first, I've now got 1000's from various sources, but if I don't have what I want I go and get it first, but I also email it to the customer so they have it for the next engineer, ok not something I would do for everyone, but any jobs I do now are for family, friends, or their family etc so I don't mind giving them the instructions for later

 

[stevetheplumber]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

 

[combo]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

 

[village idiot]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

Las far as subscriptions for manuals go, I have none, but always find what I want most of the time. As I've said earlier, for those I cannot find, I phone/mail the manufacturer and they either mail me a copy or send one by post.
If it comes to what you say that there's no way I can get the manual, then from my point of view, I'll make my excuses and ask them to get someone else in. I personally do not like turning up on a job 'blindly' then start scratching my head and wondering what precisely to do as no relevant info.

 

[AWheating]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

I didn't realise the gas regs were different for social housing contracts 😉

if your turning up without the right info then how do you know what materials you need like burner seals etc...... I know on these contracts your expected to just do a fga reading and visual the cooker and get off. But then you need the instructions for the figures anyway don't you.

 

[GrahamM]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

Some of us may be on social housing/BG contract work and do not have that luxury of knowing what they are going to until 8am that day.
I come across at least 1 fire a week with no MI's and possibly no identification at all left on the fire.

 

[combo]

It's just a shame that you can't proceed with a service all because you don't have the instructions to show you the coal layout or the specific spillage point....I just think as a professional person we should be allowed to use our training and experience. There's millions of ppl who take their coals off and hoover them every month in UK - without MI's....but, alas, the gas regs are the gas regs

 

[combo]

That was the point of my initial posting on this

 

[newcastle phill]

Its a bit crazy.
Probably a good serviceable appliance that cant be serviced because of a lack of MI.
So because of that it stays in situ unserviced and continues to be used ?

 

[AWheating]

i dont see the problem. the appliance has been designed, tested and certified to work a specific way. Its been decided by the designer that it needs to be spillage tested at a certain point for a certain reason to comfirm its working. After all that effort why should you not want to check its working as designed? because you dont want to bother searching for the instructions is not a "professional" reason to not do your job correctly. If you cant get the instructions you cant do your job correctly. Your job tho is to ensure its working as designed.

 

[newcastle phill]

I think the issue is they arent sure how to test it as no MI to refer too or rating plate.

with no MI can the BS can be referred to re ventilation and the kw calculated from gas rate with usual poc test as simple dfe fire ???

 

[AWheating]

yes you can measure the gas rate, but how do you know its correct without manufacturers data? is the injector worn, or incorrectly sized? without manufacturers data you cant even confirm its designed for use with natural gas really.

 

[newcastle phill]

Indeed.
Just seems mad that although it cant be serviced it can continue to be used whatever hidden danger it may present ?

 

[albatross]

British Gas used to have a system classifying appliances as 'Category X, Y or Z' I can't remember it properly as it was rarely used and I left ten years ago and it may not apply now but it was for appliances that were not GC listed/so old there was no data/weird imports/pre gas conversion/lost data badge etc etc. Depending on the appliances lack of data it would fall into X,Y or Z category and there was a written down method for servicing it on a best endeavours basis.

Someone might remember it or is there any BG lads on here?

Saying that, these days if I could not cover my arris by having all the correct data I would cap it off. None of us get paid enough for a service to be taking chances with grey areas that could back fire on you if the worst happened and you were stood in court.

 

[Killy Bing]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

 

[Ermintrude]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

Some bigg bum fire doing 6m3 !

 

[northcarr]

If i go to do a cp12 and find an inset fire i alway's get the instruction's either from the owner or the net otherwise ar. I at least take it out to check the flue is clear and give it the one over,i find people never tend to service them. I went to do a cp12 last month and tennant informed me that the fire had not been out in 11yr (old victorian house) omg is it just me going overboard do you guys remove them on a cp12?.