viessmann 050-w and viessmann generally

[ShaunCorbs]

Needs to have a fixed loft ladder, light and loft boards

 

[Deleted member 131795]

was thinking about more about things like.. safety, lower operating temp affecting performance, weight on joists, the need to access the boiler quickly, etc. i dunno. i mean if there are none and all i need to worry about is a £65 loft ladder and some boards, so be it. i just thought there might be more things to consider than that.

 

[Chuck]

his argument was that it would create more space in the cupboard, but i'm thinking it was probably because it's much easier to do a loft install, right? you have any thoughts on this?

I think that if you don't trust your installer's advice and judgement you should employ someone else; if they sense your cynicism many engineers will turn down the work anyway.

Nobody I know likes putting boilers in roofs; they are dirty with difficult access and mineral wool insulation gives you skin problems. Losses from pipework will be outside the thermal envelope of the house so insulation is important as is frost protection. I see it as a last resort if there is not enough space somewhere inside the house.

 

[Deleted member 131795]

I think that if you don't trust your installer's advice and judgement you should employ someone else; if they sense your cynicism many engineers will turn down the work anyway.

Nobody I know likes putting boilers in roofs; they are dirty with difficult access and mineral wool insulation gives you skin problems. Losses from pipework will be outside the thermal envelope of the house so insulation is important as is frost protection. I see it as a last resort if there is not enough space somewhere inside the house.

interesting that you don't like putting them in roofs. he seemed to think it would be better, suggesting it would give me more space (and he has a point; it's a very small flat!) plus if it's easier for him too then great for everyone. however, my preference is the bedroom cupboard where the existing immersion tank is. i don't really need the additional space.

there is no cynicism involved i just like to understand everything, and generally ask a lot of questions.

 

[Knappers]

I would generally see loft installation as a premium installation for space saving.
It is more difficult to get to for servicing and there would be some heat losses due to the cold loft in winter.
I don't have an airing cupboard and have a system boiler and unvented cylinder in the loft.
It sounds to me like your engineer is giving good advice but if you don't particularly want the extra space then I'd stick with the cupboard.

 

[Chuck]

interesting that you don't like putting them in roofs. he seemed to think it would be better, suggesting it would give me more space (and he has a point; it's a very small flat!)

Obviously, the pro is that it would give you more space. But, that comes at the price of making access and maintenance harder, etc. As long as the installation complies with the manufacture's installation instructions you can have it wherever you like.

There's another point you should check first, however. If it's a flat, does your lease actually allow you to install a boiler in the roof? IME, it would be very unusual if that were the case. Do not assume that because the access point to the roof is in your flat that the roof space is included in your demised premises.

 

[Deleted member 131795]

yeah as mentioned i really don't have a lot of stuff so space isn't really an issue for me

it's a good point, but yes, it's my loft. it's just a block of two one up one down. i'm the freeholder too.

 

[Deleted member 131795]

I would generally see loft installation as a premium installation for space saving.
It is more difficult to get to for servicing and there would be some heat losses due to the cold loft in winter.
I don't have an airing cupboard and have a system boiler and unvented cylinder in the loft.
It sounds to me like your engineer is giving good advice but if you don't particularly want the extra space then I'd stick with the cupboard.

after taking into account some of your advice i have british gas quoting me on tuesday for a worcester bosch 4000 - just so i have another option. funnily enough british gas don't offer anything lower than the 4000 cos it's not made in uk. they consider the 4000 the entry level.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Wouldn’t go bg

 

[Deleted member 131795]

Wouldn’t go bg

hi shaun, not the first time i have heard this.. can you elaborate?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

hi shaun, not the first time i have heard this.. can you elaborate?

There rubbish quality vs the price be ok if they were half what there quoting but not any more you might even find they will use contractors for the install so not even bg employees

 

[Deleted member 131795]

There rubbish quality vs the price be ok if they were half what there quoting but not any more you might even find they will use contractors for the install so not even bg employees

yeah.. they are certainly expensive. they quoted me £6k in feb for the 4000 and 3 rads.

i had a viessmann guy quote me last week £4k for a 050-w system.

really the attractive thing for me is mostly just the four years interest free.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

yeah.. they are certainly expensive. they quoted me £6k in feb for the 4000 and 3 rads.

i had a viessmann guy quote me last week £4k for a 050-w system.

really the attractive thing for me is mostly just the four years interest free.

Your paying at least £1k for that and also nothing is 0% just fees built in tho might be better looking for a 4 year 0% interest cc

Or a low interest cc / bank loan

 

[Knappers]

For the price BG will quote I would expect perfection. For BG money I would throw in a powerflush and be fitting the very top of the range equipment, with the most beautiful pipework and perfect balancing.
That's not what you'll be getting tho!
Support local small buisness'

 

[Deleted member 131795]

For the price BG will quote I would expect perfection. For BG money I would throw in a powerflush and be fitting the very top of the range equipment, with the most beautiful pipework and perfect balancing.
That's not what you'll be getting tho!
Support local small buisness'

Yeah I also don't like the fact they don't give you the manufacturer's warranty, instead giving you their own reduced five year one. Seems like a bit of a trick, that.

The reason I am going to get a final quote from them is because my ex partner she keeps on and on at me saying they're the best and that they might seem dearer to begin with, they aren't.. and then she will give a ton of reasons.. like she seems to think that they are the only company to to provide a fixed quote that includes everything, including all the sub contractors jobs, add ons, roof work, electrics, etc. unlike locals and independents who will charge extras if things come up that they haven't accounted for.

I don't really have enough experience of this to know if she is right or wrong, but the locals firms that quoted me all stated that their quotes included all necessary work and there would be no additional costs.

 

[Knappers]

There is some security in going for a big reputable company like BG.
They will always have someone to answer the phone for example.
As a simily its probably like booking a hotel room with a big chain like Hilton vs a private rental cottage. You know your getting much better value with the cottage but you'd expect to give some grace on returning calls and you don't know exactly what to expect untill you get there.
But your always going to get more value.

In my experience big firms like BG often use their warranty to compensate for the quality of installation. For example- they have recently reduced their one off service fee and include a years warranty. When I had a customer query why they should use me I pointed out that while BG will do a very basic service and pick up the faults as they happen, my service is designed to find the issues before they happen and prolong the overall life of the boiler.
Would you rather have the boiler break down and be repaired for free - or just not have it break down in the first place?

Also if you want boiler cover with BG then you can just pay monthly - they don't need to have installed it! (Obviously free cover with install isn't actually free)

 

[Deleted member 131795]

just had a quote from BG for full install with WB 4000

£7184.20

vs viessmann guy quoted me last week £4250 for same with 050-w

 

[Knappers]

I'd probably be able to do half that, then
If you don't like it - I'll just do it again🤣

 

[Deleted member 131795]

I'd probably be able to do half that, then
If you don't like it - I'll just do it again🤣

knappers

can you please advise on the following?

i've been quoted £3500 for a main eco compact install, which seems like a really good value install, and i particularly like the plumber that has offered this quote and want to use him regardless.

as well as baxi/main he also likes vaillant and quoted £4500 for the new ecotec plus 826 25kw

it's a lot of extra money for what is going to essentially do the same thing, but would i see any real world benefits by paying for this over the main? a lot of people are saying the main is outdated, doesn't modulate very low, won't be that efficient, or quiet, etc.

just so confused about what to do! £1000 is lot of money for me atm and i need to let him know today really

 

[Knappers]

Sorry I didn't see this yesterday.
Either would be fine.
The most important thing is that your happy and confident with the installer.
For me the decision would depend on the control options. The vaillant is more capable but only makes sense if those capabilities are being implemented with the right controls?
Does the vaillant quote have different controls and if so what?

The paradox with the right setup is that in theory it should be possible to have increased comfort and decreased running costs.
Even if its worth the extra it's not magic - you get what you pay for. With a boiler lasting say 15years are you in the possition to pay upfront for £70 worth of annual comfort?

 

[Deleted member 131795]

same control options essentially, just load compensation. the cheaper baxi option would just use a cheap EPH opentherm controller and the (much) more expensive vaillant option would include their sensohome controller.

the vaillant ecotec plus was recommended to me as the best non-budget option by syzmon from urban plumbers, simply because of the modulation going as low as 2.5kw. the heat loss in my flat is about 4.8kw.

the main eco compact only goes down to about 6.7kw

but i'm not sure just how important this extra wide modulation ratio is, over it resorting to on/off control when it reaches set point.

the main is just very basic, whereas the vaillant looks completely badass, has all kinds of app control and data stuff going on, it's a fair few db quieter too, and as it'll be going in airing cupboard in bedroom, not kitchen, this might be worth the extra.

no idea i'm so confused. an extra £1000 is a lot of money, i can manage it, but i wonder how much of a difference it would really make.

 

[Knappers]

I would like to think that vaillant controls would be more effective and I'm a big fan of matching boiler and controller (except baxi)
If 'main' is running with opentherm then there probably won't be much difference and if in a cupboard then looks don't matter.
The smart choice would probably be the main.
I'd probably chose the vaillant tho coz I'm just not very smart.
(I'm sure that doesn't help😄)

 

[bobbyt]

I would like to think that vaillant controls would be more effective and I'm a big fan of matching boiler and controller (except baxi)
If 'main' is running with opentherm then there probably won't be much difference and if in a cupboard then looks don't matter.
The smart choice would probably be the main.
I'd probably chose the vaillant tho coz I'm just not very smart.
(I'm sure that doesn't help😄)

Hi,
I recently had a Viessmann 050 25kw combi fitted with weather comp and EPH controller, which provides basic on/off temperatures if required. It replaced my old Baxi with hot water tank etc.
I'm using the CH for the first time this week, and must say it is really efficient. 10 deg outside and it is modulating at 10% and using about 3kwh when burner is on, and the burner isn't on all the time. Rooms at a constant temp of 20-21 deg. Really pleased with the whole set up, saving loads of gas compared to my old boiler which was only on 8-9 hours a day, and I have this one on all day and night with reduced night temperature set on controller. Just thought this might be useful info, if you haven't made your choice yet.

 

[Deleted member 131795]

glad you are happy with your system. i've decided that weather comp is over-hyped. not saying it doesn't do anything, it's just diminished returns; your savings are going to be because it's a modern condensing boiler with low flow temps. the weather comp doesn't do much in addition to that, and i assume the EPH controller is on/off mode as it can't work in opentherm mode at the same time as weather comp.

i am going with a main eco compact 25kw and eph cp4 control. i think that'll get me 95% of the way there.

have you thought about what would happen to your bills if you turned it off at night?

 

[bobbyt]

glad you are happy with your system. i've decided that weather comp is over-hyped. not saying it doesn't do anything, it's just diminished returns; your savings are going to be because it's a modern condensing boiler with low flow temps. the weather comp doesn't do much in addition to that, and i assume the EPH controller is on/off mode as it can't work in opentherm mode at the same time as weather comp.

i am going with a main eco compact 25kw and eph cp4 control. i think that'll get me 95% of the way there.

have you thought about what would happen to your bills if you turned it off at night?

Hi, ok thats good then, it didn't come on last night, my night setting was 18 deg, so obviously it wasn't required, overnight temps outside were 11 deg. during the day it used about 28kwh and the house felt really comfortable. It'll be a bit of a learning curve according to weather, can always alter the weather comp curve to suit if required. Yes you are correct, EPH is just an on/off switch.

I have done a lot of research on weather comp, and I think it will be really efficient at making the house feel comfortable at the same temperature, we are home all day most days as we are retired, so it suits our lifestyle. My house is also well insulated with the max thickness of loft insulation, and the recommendation is to keep the CH on to maintain the temperature, and to enable the system to heat the house up quicker in the morning, as if the temp is allowed to go too low, with the low flow temps (yesterday 40-43 deg), it will take longer to get back to 20 deg, which is what I have selected on the boiler. Anyway, as long as we are both happy 🙂