is time served the same as an apprenticeship

[Gray0689]

Maybe just the tec near me tutors just ok
But the teaching sylibus is very much outdated to today's plumbing I'm only speaking for where I live we don't do lead we don't do any guttering
Yes teaches basic principles but this is over 4 years come on I learn more in first 6 months on site than I did at 4 years in tec lol

 

[fuzzy]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

 

[tamz]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

 

[fuzzy]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

 

[GQuigley67]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

 

[tamz]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

Oh i made sure he learned lol

 

[fuzzy]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

mmmm i dont entirely agree. i think we always feel it was better years ago, i think theres a lot of good done in colleges. it is true to say with the expansion of plumbing trainees that colleges took on many new staff, they couldnt train them as teachers and assessors quick enough though, so whilst this was happening i wouldnt be surprised if the standard was lowered. i think with inspections and quality controls its hard for colleges not to keep high standards without sanctions against them, and with the introduction of the new qualification i think the temporary lowering of teaching will quickly rise again

 

[fuzzy]

Oh i made sure he learned lol

send em to college instead (sorry mate, couldn't resist)

 

[Gray0689]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

 

[Gray0689]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

That would be a very good thing

 

[GQuigley67]

must be too expensive lol

 

[fuzzy]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

we used to have this and it was changed to be continual assessment, i think all trades are the same. many smaller assessments throughout the year is easier to achieve imo. having said that, what was stopping somebody doing nothing for 2 years and then passing the end test?

 

[Gray0689]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

You put it a lot beter than me tamz
To me learning is about hands on

 

[GQuigley67]

sparks, joiners, painters etc still do a trades test

 

[fuzzy]

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

"un-vented" can be done in 2 days - only if you are experienced, not a newbie
"a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it" They cannot teach you to install a complete office block or similar! thats for work to do, the college is there to give the underpinning skills, measure, cut, mark, knock off center to end of thread, thread joint, use jointing compound, tighten fitting, mark walls, fit rad level and put together then test. This can then be applied when on site to a larger scale
"ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not" ooh yes i have, its unlikely all will pass. what often happens is learners realise they cannot pass and its beyond them and they leave the course, technically they haven't failed, just left the course due to some circumstance. All exams are on line and I'd be surprised if most plumbers could walk in and pass without revision
"I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing" I have heard young employees say they learn nothing at college, this is often because they are too lazy to learn, dont want to do the work and its easier to blame the college than it is to go back to work and tell the truth, this may not be the case with your 2, but it is the case in the majority of my experience


​What was your own experience when you went to college as an apprentice? did you do the NVQ3 or the C&G advanced certificate?

 

[fuzzy]

sparks, joiners, painters etc still do a trades test

ill have to take your word for that mate, i thought most if not all were continual assessment. im not sure were i stand on this one, i see benefits of each system

 

[GQuigley67]

i remember all my mates panicing about their trades test around the time i was panicing about my ACS lol

 

[fuzzy]

You put it a lot beter than me tamz
To me learning is about hands on

with building servcies trades become more complex and sophisticated I feel the theory side of our trade is becoming more important. If anything with the introduction of jointing like speedfit the actual practical skills are less than they were a few decades ago. However systems are far more sophisticated

 

[Gray0689]

Yes nvq3
Not lazy good lads
I have seen complete numptys pass nvq3 could not join there hands together if they stay till end they WILL pass
Fuzzy I'm guessing your an instructor??

 

[fuzzy]

i remember all my mates panicing about their trades test around the time i was panicing about my ACS lol

yes thats the counter argument, somebody could be very good all throughout the qual and then bottle it on assessment day. I suppose you could counter counter (lol) with, in life you are put under pressure and you have to deal with it. too many doo gooders to let us put people under that pressure as often these days