POC entering building

[REDSAW]

but what if the boiler was to develop a fault?

then its not immediately dangerous is it?

 

[buckley plumb]

I take it the flue had a terminal guard fitted as it was 900mm from the floor? Surely the steam entering the building would be a nuisance, but what if the boiler was to develop a fault? Potentially deadly POC's entering the property through the air brick or the door.......would AR stand up in court or err on the side of caution, ID it and fit a plume kit?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether??
Just so I'm clear if I was to come across this scenario.......

you could say that about any boiler only300mm away

 

[boilerbrigade]

I take it the flue had a terminal guard fitted as it was 900mm from the floor? Surely the steam entering the building would be a nuisance, but what if the boiler was to develop a fault? Potentially deadly POC's entering the property through the air brick or the door.......would AR stand up in court or err on the side of caution, ID it and fit a plume kit?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether??
Just so I'm clear if I was to come across this scenario.......

i agree, It only needs a plume kit - and because I could not test room co I could not leave it chance.

What's the crack with this co testing module? Bbdda1 or what ever it is called, does anyone know?

 

[AWheating]

the facts are this, on the day you attended poc were entering the building. It does not matter what happed yesterday or tomorrow. You could go back tomorrow and test again and it will be a pass. Tell the customer you can only base your judgement on what is seen when you attend and avise them to solve the problem for good a simple and cheapish plume kit can be installed. If the customer thinks different then they can get somebody else in to take a look.

 

[buckley plumb]

i agree, It only needs a plume kit - and because I could not test room co I could not leave it chance.

What's the crack with this co testing module? Bbdda1 or what ever it is called, does anyone know?

you only need the ticket if report of co or alarm. you can use to determine what you needed to do.

 

[boilerbrigade]

you could say that about any boiler only300mm away

- seriously I have seen many flues 300 from windows etc but were nothing like this it was lower than door handle with an alleyway next to it and everything just went into the house. I'm sure all the manufactures give a distance but if you rang them and told them it was pouring into the property is it ok to leave it they would say no stop being a pecker and ensure poc do not enter the building

 

[diamondgas]

Which is fine, as long as it does not enter the building....!

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

 

[boilerbrigade]

the facts are this, on the day you attended poc were entering the building. It does not matter what happed yesterday or tomorrow. You could go back tomorrow and test again and it will be a pass. Tell the customer you can only base your judgement on what is seen when you attend and avise them to solve the problem for good a simple and cheapish plume kit can be installed. If the customer thinks different then they can get somebody else in to take a look.

which is exactly what I did ! I don't think I did anything wrong just started post to get some idea of what people say when another engineer offers a conflicting, albeit wrong view without seeing the boiler about what's wrong with the boiler. Basically he missed it because he never commissioned boiler after changing gas pipe, he left it on standby as could not find programmer...

 

[buckley plumb]

fit a co alarm as belt and braces

 

[boilerbrigade]

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

That at was a bit of a gag mate that's all but yeah I agree however I was the last engineer at this boiler and I was not happy it was safe - period, so off it went. If someone wants to go and re connect it tomorrow maybe they could pick up my cheque for the pipe I run today??? :tounge_smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Theres so many 'shoulda, woulda coulda' with these types of jobs. All you can go on is the MIs and your own judgement end of. Can you be too safe, who knows

 

[kris]

And if the flue was 2m away but the plume was seen blowing into a window what then? If an appliance is otherwise fitted safely and as per mi's then the only was to establish risk is via room co monitoring, which most FGA's facilitate, and a CO Alarm does constantly.

Yeh its just a seperate probe for fga you need and there quite dear ,

 

[diamondgas]

Yeh its just a seperate probe for fga you need and there quite dear ,

The fga sucks in and analyses ... why worry what it sucks through?

 

[Reg Man]

Ambient CO should be tested in accordance with BS 7967. Gas safe also provide guidance on this.

 

[Reg Man]

Advantica also publish a good paper on this situation.

 

[Nvq level 3]

Send the apprentice round to pick the cheque up at least he can have the ear bashing off the customer, make him work for that bread!

 

[GrahamM]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

 

[Ermintrude]

You say "plume was entering the building" so you ID'd boiler?
You were erring on side of caution but you can't be ID'ng this just because you seen condensation plume enter doorway.

To ID something you must be certain under the gas regs and using your expert/training/knowledge that there is an 'Immediately Dangerous' situation and have something to back this up. Can't go ID'ing because you "believe" it may be dangerous.

Document your findings, advise customer, recommend CO alarm.

What? The plume is poc!

 

[diamondgas]

What? The plume is poc!

I'm with GrahamM .... The plume is steam; yes, it's produced by the boiler but it doesn't mean it's dangerous! We would be turning of a huge amount of boilers for plume entry IMHO. My own boiler plume blows up the side of my home and is still visible 6m away at the kitchen door on a cold day!

 

[Ermintrude]

Plume is product of combustion. Stand infront of boiler and breathe it in. The steam contains 9% co2 and 120ppm co . Usually the same as what's coming out if flue port, why would the water vapour separate from the other products as it left the flue and what would happen as it left the flue to render it safe? The water vapour is suspended in the other flue gasses. It's not steam as in a condensing boiler steam is condensed to water droplets .

 

[diamondgas]

the air it vents into will dilute the poc's rapidly I'd imagine.... the condensed water vapour is the visible "plume" as far as I'm aware? The CO and CO2 concentrations will dilute quite rapidly as they exit the flue into atmosphere. The readings you take with the fga are undiluted, straight from the burning process in the flue before it exits.

 

[tamz]

I agree with Diamond gas. The poc's are rapidly diluted as they leave the flue.

If it hadn't been a steamer and you couldn't see the plume leaving the flue would you have given it a second thought?

I altered my own flue for this reason and stuck a vertical on, not because i thought it was dangerous in any way, but because it annoyed me.
My flue was about 3m away from the door coming out at right angle but the prevailing wind blew the plume towards the door. The previous boiler was in the same position so would have been doing the same but i couldn't see it so it didn't annoy me.

 

[Reg Man]

Nice to see you back Tamz. There has been many a fatal poisoning in the past due to re-entry of POC's in the past from boiler flues, even though they are diluted. One springs to mind, is Domonic Rogers. His mum is fabulous in promoting gas safety, with the Domonic Rogers Trust.

 

[diamondgas]

"Many a Fatal Poisoning" Reg Man? Were the appliances of these "many fatal poisonings" otherwise installed as per manufacturers instructions and maintained correctly?? If they were I'd think the HSE would be advising revision wouldn't you?

Just did a search on the said incident .. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1456151/Neighbours-boiler-fumes-kill-boy-10.html

A lot of other factors contributed to the death of this person in 2004 by the looks of things, including position of installation in a passageway. It doesn't mention the appliance responsible either or whether it was maintained.

I and you adhere to manufacturers instructions when installing appliances. Have they got it wrong?

 

[Reg Man]

That's why BS was introduced for ambient readings. Domonic Rogers died, because of the neighbours boiler, terminating in a gimmel (passageway between building's) lots of dilution but still enough harmful POC's to migrate through the ceiling. It took very little time on reconstruction of the event to prove fatal levels.