Plastic or Copper piping?

[JoB333]

Hello,

I need to replace the Galvanized Steel pipes in my central heating system, the question is weather to use Copper of Plastic.

I have heard plastic can have the following issues

1: Joints come loose over time and leak
2: Joints suck in air over time, meaning more bleeding of the system etc.
3: Mice or other rodent (not that I have a known issue with rodents) eat these pipes where as they do not eat copper pipes.

As far as plastic goes I heard Hep02 is the best one to go for?

As far as copper goes I have heard TaraCorp Sterling Lead Free Solder is the best in the industry, but cannot seem to find this for sale at UK outlets, does anyone know where I can by TaraCort Sterling solder/water based flux?

Basically I guess the main question is if it was your house and you were intending to live there for the next 30 years or so which would you install?

Thank everyone in advance,
JoB

 

[gavinwilson]

I would use copper

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[nysk2008]

If it was my house, I would always install with copper - no real reason just my preference. Cant comment on the solder/flux you are talking about - but in my opinion a standard lead free solder with a good flux (laco, fry) etc would do just perfect

 

[Dotty]

Copper all the way. Taracorp looks to be the industry standard in the usa. We're a little less discerning. your plumber will have his preference for solder and flux. Mine is any lead free and Powerflow.

 

[SimonG]

Personally copper for me, any lead free solder (although for heating you can use leaded) and powerflow flux.

If you go for plastic I normally use jg speedfit I find it better, but thats just my opinion.

If you do a search on plastic v copper you will find quite a number of threads on this subject.

Oh and welcome to the forum 🙂

 

[JoB333]

Thanks very much every one for your feed back, much appreciated, I was an electrician for several years back in the 90's but never did plumbing, so thanks again for the adive

Jo

 

[Guest123]

Without any doubt, copper and soldered fittings. Remember to fit pipe insulation.

I've seen the damage that rodents do to plastic. I was at a house last year, where a mouse had eaten through a rising main and flooded the attic causing the ceilings to collapse in 2 floors. If you use plastic, encase it in steel conduit.

 

[Barry98]

Think you've found the preferred choice of plumbers

 

[TBServices]

Without any doubt, copper and soldered fittings. Remember to fit pipe insulation.

I've seen the damage that rodents do to plastic. I was at a house last year, where a mouse had eaten through a rising main and flooded the attic causing the ceilings to collapse in 2 floors. If you use plastic, encase it in steel conduit.

I'd love to see what happens to a mouse when the water hits him in the face at 3/4 bar lol.


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[Barry98]

Probably the same face we pull

 

[snowhead]

I'd love to see what happens to a mouse when the water hits him in the face at 3/4 bar lol.


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It's a slightly happier expression to the one that gets frozen on their face when they chew through live cables. :crazy:

 

[AWheating]

in my own house id go copper, quality end feed fittings. As for solder it normally the one the merchant has one the shelf at the time, i do prefere the slightly stiffer solder as its easier to use in tight corners/under baths etc......

 

[Best]

Copper pipe with end feed fittings & leaded solder on heating is fine, but lead free is strong if you wanted. I think then the flux is important. I use the traditional flux. like Fluxite or Yorkshire traditional grease based fluxes. Hard part is to get an installer who has experience & is fussy.
Copper job will last more than 30 years! My heating is 36 years & like new.

 

[hammers4spanner]

to be honest any plumber worth his salt would use copper , Plastic is o.k and is good for some installs but as plumbers/fitters we tend to look at [plastic as diy or for use for builders who tend to advertise themselves as bathroom fitters .

 

[stevetheplumber]

to be honest any plumber worth his salt would use copper , Plastic is o.k and is good for some installs but as plumbers/fitters we tend to look at [plastic as diy or for use for builders who tend to advertise themselves as bathroom fitters .

i cant see how you can come out with unfounded infomation nearly all new builds will be entirely plastic and a good percentage of refurb and emergency work will also be in plastic there fore a lot plumber wouldnt see plastic as substandard
yes i agree copper is the more substantial material but as always theres a trade of on quality and price

 

[00gadge]

Hello,

I need to replace the Galvanized Steel pipes in my central heating system, the question is weather to use Copper of Plastic.

I have heard plastic can have the following issues

1: Joints come loose over time and leak
2: Joints suck in air over time, meaning more bleeding of the system etc.
3: Mice or other rodent (not that I have a known issue with rodents) eat these pipes where as they do not eat copper pipes.

As far as plastic goes I heard Hep02 is the best one to go for?

As far as copper goes I have heard TaraCorp Sterling Lead Free Solder is the best in the industry, but cannot seem to find this for sale at UK outlets, does anyone know where I can by TaraCort Sterling solder/water based flux?

Basically I guess the main question is if it was your house and you were intending to live there for the next 30 years or so which would you install?

Thank everyone in advance,
JoB

Copper wins hands down

 

[Blumper]

..well all I know is, when I've soldered up a load of pipe runs for new rads or whatever and they get buried behind plasterboard and covered over by flooring, I don't think twice about it.....ever......but when I've had to do it all in hep20 or any other plastic because its specified, I fret about each connection made for ages after, did I push it in fully ? did I pinch the o-ring ? did I lock the nut after ?...........and to this day I still can't get my head to accept that they are as watertight as a properly soldered copper joint.....but that's just me.

 

[Gray0689]

Plastic pex pipe in pipe for me going back to manifolds with actuator heads and stats in all rooms NO joints under any floor and total control of each room independently
And power flow flux and any lead free solder
Where in 2012 gone should be the days when you can't control your heating systems frankly heating that just does upstairs and downstairs zones is not enough IMHO
My new heating will be underfloor in main living area with a couple of column rads for a boost in summer if needed big room lol
Bedrooms rads back to manifold working independently and bathrooms with underfloor and towel rads

 

[Gray0689]

And ps hep20 is the worst IMHO if I use any plastic joints it would be polyplumb

 

[JoB333]

Thanks again for the replies

when it comes to insulation of the copper pipes under the floor boards, I was thinking about using normal plumbing pipe felt, i.e. the stuff that stops the creaking over joists etc when the pipe heats up. I was going to use the felt along the whole length of the pipes, is that good enough for insulation for under floor boards, or should I use something more substantial under the ground floor, floor boards in particular, if so will any standard pipe insulation do, it is one brand better than another?

Thanks again to everyone for your help

Jo

 

[hammers4spanner]

i cant see how you can come out with unfounded infomation nearly all new builds will be entirely plastic and a good percentage of refurb and emergency work will also be in plastic there fore a lot plumber wouldnt see plastic as substandard
yes i agree copper is the more substantial material but as always theres a trade of on quality and price

Totally misunderstood my statement , worked on new builds for years and the quality on plastic installs was average at best , most of the plumbers i have worked with on new builds i wouldnt even class as plumbers out of every ten maybe 3 had done a full plumbing course same as emergency work no plumbers but this so called multi trade trades rubbish . Plastic is qiuck fix and diy easy peazy set up , gets more difficult when using aquatherm for eg but as a rule if you knowledge of lego then you can use plastic .

 

[Guest123]

The problem with plastic systems is not the material itself, but the failure rate it has gained through incorrect installation, by so called installers who haven't even bothered to read the manufacturers installation guides before using it.

Much of plumbing is now being taken on by diy'ers and handymen etc. not just plastic, gutters and downpipes, showers, bathrooms and a whole host of other things. I've just carried out repairs to a bathroom installation that was done by a builder, not a plumber and it was a mess, plastic everywhere, cistern leaking, plastic waste pipes leaking etc. If plastic wasn't here, and only copper and solder was the norm, then I doubt that many builders would be able to tackle it. Well any way, customer had no warranty with her bathroom either and it cost quite a bit for my services to repair it. Had she gone with either myself or any other decent plumber, she'd have had a warranty and the repairs wouldn't have cost her anything, not that repairs of this magnitude would be needed any way. The moral of the story here for her is that cheapest isn't always best and it cost her a lot more in the long run to have it put right.

Definitely copper every time for me and the fact that I only use copper has won me bathroom installations over others who have been cheaper. I use it as a selling point when doing a bathroom survey and customers appreciate that if I'm using quality materials, then they'll get a quality job.

 

[DTG plumbing]

Copper all the way as the rest have said! If a jobs werth doing
may aswel do it neat and tidy 🙂

 

[hammers4spanner]

I will say the big bonus of using plastic is no fire hazard !!!!

 

[markfxy]

I'd use plastic where not seen and copper if on show I couldn't give a monkeys whats under my floorboards so I'd go for the cheaper quicker option which is plastic

 

[nicro3]

Use whats good for you, On show coppers the one, hidden your choice. The same argument happened before my time lead or copper. Somethings come and go and plastic is here to stay.

 

[Destroyer2813]

The problem with plastic systems is not the material itself, but the failure rate it has gained through incorrect installation, by so called installers who haven't even bothered to read the manufacturers installation guides before using it.

Much of plumbing is now being taken on by diy'ers and handymen etc. not just plastic, gutters and downpipes, showers, bathrooms and a whole host of other things. I've just carried out repairs to a bathroom installation that was done by a builder, not a plumber and it was a mess, plastic everywhere, cistern leaking, plastic waste pipes leaking etc. If plastic wasn't here, and only copper and solder was the norm, then I doubt that many builders would be able to tackle it. Well any way, customer had no warranty with her bathroom either and it cost quite a bit for my services to repair it. Had she gone with either myself or any other decent plumber, she'd have had a warranty and the repairs wouldn't have cost her anything, not that repairs of this magnitude would be needed any way. The moral of the story here for her is that cheapest isn't always best and it cost her a lot more in the long run to have it put right.

Definitely copper every time for me and the fact that I only use copper has won me bathroom installations over others who have been cheaper. I use it as a selling point when doing a bathroom survey and customers appreciate that if I'm using quality materials, then they'll get a quality job.

Went to a Dolphin hash up job removed the bath panel and a access panel in the ensuite everything in sight plastic no sign of clips sagging all over the place, same as with the soil at best 1 elbow was propped up with a discarded pot of glue

 

[Guest123]

Went to a Dolphin hash up job removed the bath panel and a access panel in the ensuite everything in sight plastic no sign of clips sagging all over the place, same as with the soil at best 1 elbow was propped up with a discarded pot of glue

That's partly why Dolphin are no longer around. I see many jobs like this, where botch ups are hidden behind partitions etc. basically if the customer can't see it then it's out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Thats on top of fitting a whale pump that cant keep up with the amount of water the shower puts out :59: worst money that customer ever spent

 

[Dannypipe]

We've done this debate so many times.

I use both copper and plastic barrier pipe. Never had any major issue with either.

My house had no central heating when I bought it last year. I fitted a system of plastic to the rads, and then a length of copper with a chrome plated tail to the rad (chrome plated pipe, rubbed back and soldered to the copper).

Looks nice, hasnt leaked. Went in much quicker than copper, and cost less money.

If it's done badly, it doesn't matter if it's plastic or copper. It will leak or air lock just the same! It will have just cost you more if it was badly fitted copper!!

 

[deadstare]

Those that use plastic are the ones that cant use a pipe bender or solder correctly any tradesman worth his salt will always opt for copper also i the other issue i have came across is with plastic under the floor the rats tend to take a liking to the taste

 

[Doodlebug]

Copper all day long.


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[galaxy_plumbing]

defo copper 😉

 

[Mike Jackson]

Those that use plastic are the ones that cant use a pipe bender or solder correctly any tradesman worth his salt will always opt for copper also i the other issue i have came across is with plastic under the floor the rats tend to take a liking to the taste

What a load of complete and utter tosh. Copper is normally preferable but there are times when plastic is the better option. There are times when the fire risk is too great to solder and plastic is a godsend in these instances. Where cost is a big issue in can be more economical to use plastic and, unless you're very lucky,few of us can afford to turn down work nowadays.

We've got to move with the times and embrace new materials whether we like it or not. It's great to stick with the old materials but not always possible.


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[Subby]

Plastic can be a lot quicker to install, hence why it is used a lot on new builds, and is really handy to fish through places where it would not be possible to get copper pipe in. It is also unsightly, and for what ever reason, the fittings are more prone to failure.
My vote... Copper !

 

[Doodlebug]

What a load of complete and utter tosh. Copper is normally preferable but there are times when plastic is the better option. There are times when the fire risk is too great to solder and plastic is a godsend in these instances. Where cost is a big issue in can be more economical to use plastic and, unless you're very lucky,few of us can afford to turn down work nowadays.

We've got to move with the times and embrace new materials whether we like it or not. It's great to stick with the old materials but not always possible.


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9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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[Dannypipe]

Well I guess you visit a lot of plastic systems with microbore? You also have issues with sludge problems on copper microbore systems.

 

[Mike Jackson]

9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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I could probably say the same for copper but it's not to do with the material. You'll find more dodgy installs in plastic than copper because it's the DIYers choice. In the past L used to come across dodgy installs in copper with all compression fittings.


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[petercj]

9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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Lots of recommendations for power flushing then! :sifone:

 

[Doodlebug]

Lots of recommendations for power flushing then! :sifone:

If the system is in plastic but the water is spotlessly clean then no I wouldn't recommend a PowerFlush. Systems with a lot of plastic pipe are more prone to sludge up and it's more important to inhibit the system on a regular basis, but in reality, who keeps there inhibitor topped up.


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[petercj]

If the system is in plastic but the water is spotlessly clean then no I wouldn't recommend a PowerFlush. Systems with a lot of plastic pipe are more prone to sludge up and it's more important to inhibit the system on a regular basis, but in reality, who keeps there inhibitor topped up.


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"spotlessly clean"

'Spotlessly clean' seems to be the BG standard, which is unrealistic after a system has been running for a number of years because steel radiators will produce magnetite even with inhibitor in the system - as the word suggests, the additive 'inhibits' rather than prevents corrosion completely.

I think BG must train their fitters to condemn plastic speed fit based on the myth that plastic pipe will suck air - being a reputation SF got in the early days of its use when non-barrier pipe was mistakenly fitted to CH systems.

Whilst copper may be the better choice most of the time, SF has got a bad name through being misused. Plus, its potential for making plumbing easier, and so expanding the DIY market, has fueled an antipathy in the trade.

As the price of raw copper rises there will be a tendency for copper pipe to be made of thinner and cheaper alloys, which will, no doubt, reduce the reliability and life of a lot of the copper pipe now being used. Like it or not, plastic is the future.

 

[Doodlebug]

Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all? All I've heard from you since I joined this site is constant whining about how bad British Gas is.
Back on subject, spotlessly clean was probably the wrong choice of words as I agree that's not realistic, what I meant to say was "clean". Now I visit a lot of blocked systems and I've come across a lot that are due to plastic pipes. Yes some are piped in copper but the majority are plastic pipe systems. You are probably correct in saying its more than likely down to the fact that the DIY man uses plastic.


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[petercj]

Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all? All I've heard from you since I joined this site is constant whining about how bad British Gas is.
Back on subject, spotlessly clean was probably the wrong choice of words as I agree that's not realistic, what I meant to say was "clean". Now I visit a lot of blocked systems and I've come across a lot that are due to plastic pipes. Yes some are piped in copper but the majority are plastic pipe systems. You are probably correct in saying its more than likely down to the fact that the DIY man uses plastic.


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"Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all?"

If you can leave that with me, I will give it some thought!

The reason I posted was that what you have said is what all the BG fitters I have spoken with say - i.e. they all condemn plastic out of hand.

If I am as innately critical of BG as you imply, I have to say that you are the converse Doodlebug - in fact you seem to be to British Gas what Howard was to the Halifax!

How do BG get all their blokes to say the same thing?

Does the training end with: "321 ... you're back in the room"?

 

[Doodlebug]

You do make me laugh mate "321 your back in the room" classic.
I only say what I see mate. I'm not the British Gas Howard pmsl
In fact I am critical of British Gas myself. The hard facts are, plastic pipework is more prone to blockages if not maintained. If the inhibitor levels in a plastic pipe system were kept adequate and the system itself was installed correctly then I've no doubt that the plastic pipe would be just as good as copper. But the reality is, when decorators or plumbers or custards drain radiators they don't top the inhibitor back up. Obviously even in a copper piped system it's important to keep a check on inhibitor levels but in my opinion it's more important with plastic pipe systems.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

@OP: Add another point to your disadvances on plastic: oxygen intake. I only once read someone stating in this thread that you have to use barrier pipe if you want to use plastic. Everything else would be a build in guarantee for heavy corrosion.

I personally prefer MLCP where unseen or to feed through inaccessible passages. On show I prefer copper. Or if it comes to larger diameters.
MLCP combines some of the better properties of both worlds.
If you find aluminum eating mice then their big brothers will eat copper too soon. You can bend it to shape and it does not sack unless completely unclipped over large distances. Just a bit like copper. You can avoid unnecessary fittings through that. Goes great in conjunction with manifold systems. It is as oxygen tight as copper. It is quickly installed. It lasts long.
You get brass crimp fittings for it. The 16mm pipe can get joined via compression adapters straight onto your manifold/compression fitting/valve/tap. But now you get push fits for it as well if that is your world.
Only thing is once the connection is done you can only cut it out.

 

[Bernie2]

Err! Interestingly I think copper pipe has been found to have anti bacterial properties and is favoured for use by the NHS?

I would also add it also produces verdigris which is a type of poison.

I like it and prefer it to plastic. Plastic as said entrains air unless barrier pipe is used. I also have many other doubts about it. I have been in pubs where the mice have eaten through the nylon pipes trying to get to the ale. High temperatures make it go like skipping rope.

The upside is its cushy and easy to install and like flexies makes a lot of plumbing a very simple job.

 

[deadstare]

With the introduction of the copper push fit fittingswhat is the reason again that anyone would choose plastic as their preferredchoice

 

[AWheating]

plastic or copper is my prefered choice dependant on the jobs installation requirements! 🙂

 

[AWheating]

those that dismiss one system all together are just reducing the scpoe of work they can do. Most new builds now use chamber,i beam, cross webb joist systems and plastic pipework systems are the ideal choice. Anybody who has had to put a 28mm gas carcus in with these types of joists 12" apart will know that doing the same throughout the property for the heating and hot and cold would be a mare.

Ive said it many times that plastic takes skill to install correctly but can be installed by idiots alot easyier than copper. What you get off most plumbers when they find problems with plastic systems is "plasitc is crap" but when you get problems with copper systems its the installers fault. Lets be honest its normally the installers fault for installing incorrectly or using the wrong materials. Its not the plastic manufacutres fault that an installer did not use barrier pipe on a heating system, so why blame plastic?

 

[TBServices]

those that dismiss one system all together are just reducing the scpoe of work they can do. Most new builds now use chamber,i beam, cross webb joist systems and plastic pipework systems are the ideal choice. Anybody who has had to put a 28mm gas carcus in with these types of joists 12" apart will know that doing the same throughout the property for the heating and hot and cold would be a mare.

Ive said it many times that plastic takes skill to install correctly but can be installed by idiots alot easyier than copper. What you get off most plumbers when they find problems with plastic systems is "plasitc is crap" but when you get problems with copper systems its the installers fault. Lets be honest its normally the installers fault for installing incorrectly or using the wrong materials. Its not the plastic manufacutres fault that an installer did not use barrier pipe on a heating system, so why blame plastic?

Agreed. Plastic has its place, especially for heating systems in new builds. The problem with plastic is it's perception by non-plumbers, who think that soldering is the hardest part of the job (lol) so therefore, plastic pipe means they are instantly competent plumbers.

On a side note, please correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that sludge in a system was a byproduct of the reaction of ferrous, non-ferrous metals, moisture and air within a heating system, which the inhibitor, well, inhibited. Therefore, less copper = less sludge?


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[petercj]

Agreed. Plastic has its place, especially for heating systems in new builds. The problem with plastic is it's perception by non-plumbers, who think that soldering is the hardest part of the job (lol) so therefore, plastic pipe means they are instantly competent plumbers.

On a side note, please correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that sludge in a system was a byproduct of the reaction of ferrous, non-ferrous metals, moisture and air within a heating system, which the inhibitor, well, inhibited. Therefore, less copper = less sludge?


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Magnetite aka sludge (the black stuff) is produced by steel/iron radiators

 

[TBServices]

Magnetite aka sludge (the black stuff) is produced by steel/iron radiators

Yes, but is it not the chemical difference between the copper and the steel that creates the magnetite? I can't remember where I picked this up, probably from college.


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[petercj]

Yes, but is it not the chemical difference between the copper and the steel that creates the magnetite? I can't remember where I picked this up, probably from college.


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Magnetite in radiators is a product of corrosion, and the more oxygen there is in the water the faster the process will be - IF plastic pipe did allow air to pass, then that would explain excessive sludging. I've never heard that plastic will reduce the tendency for magnetite to form.

 

[SimonG]

Nowt wrong with plastic, when installed correctly. Trouble is most of the time it's thrown in by people who don't read the mi's. It's a nice addition to the arsenal and has it's place. I only have two issues with plastic, vermin chewing it and muppets installing it incorrectly.

Was there all this commotion when we went from lead to copper?

 

[TBServices]

Magnetite in radiators is a product of corrosion, and the more oxygen there is in the water the faster the process will be - IF plastic pipe did allow air to pass, then that would explain excessive sludging. I've never heard that plastic will reduce the tendency for magnetite to form.

Right, hence the barrier. So when we're talking about excessive buildup here, we're on the assumption of using the incorrect pipe.


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[DirksPlumbing]

Right, hence the barrier. So when we're talking about excessive buildup here, we're on the assumption of using the incorrect pipe.

Well yes but no. The barrier is only hindering the process of oxygen intrusion. It is not a stop. If we are talking about excessive sludging in short period of times then most likely non barrier pipe has been used. But without inhibitor a plastic system has no chance but sludging. Hence my favorite MLCP as the metal layer is oxygen proof not only a barrier.
Although massive sludging can be caused by leaks as well because of adding constantly oxygen rich water to the system.

As for the copper mentioned in the process of sludging then that is explained by the fact that the different metal ions dissolved in the water do speed up the process of corrosion massively but once the oxygen has been used up then that stops. Meaning if you had a system that does not comprise anything but steel and plastic the process would be slower. But due to the oxygen intrusion still never stops. Just that would require a complete absence of other metals but the sort of steel used for the radiator. It actually could endanger SS heat exchangers as them would start rusting then just as normal steel.

So there is an easy rule: If it is open vented system use inhibitor, if it is a sealed system comprising plastic use inhibitor, if it is a sealed system comprising metal aka copper use inhibitor. The last theoretically does not need it that urgent but how do you make 100% sure that the integrity of the system never ever gets disturbed? As soon as the customer has to top up the system or the boiler comprises plastic fittings or..., well you need it.

But then again we should keep that quite as the volume of system cleans has dramatically reduced over the recent years and I have no other explanation than the use of inhibitor becoming more wide spread. At least for me.

As for the antibacterial feature you can use PVCC pipe as well as it even reduces buildup of lime scales. I had been told that PVCC would be preferred by NHS?

 

[petercj]

Look for the relevant British Standard markings on the pipe:-

John Guest Speedfit - The World Leader in Push-fit Fittings, Pipe and Plastic Plumbing Systems - PEX BARRIER PIPE IN COILS

 

[TBServices]

Good answer dirks!


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[petercj]

Good answer dirks!


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There is a lot of cobblers talked about the use of plastic in central heating systems - plastic has been widely used in the manufacture of vehicle radiators for the past 25 years without major problems - with water at 100c +.

O rings have been used in aero-engineering for decades - next time you take off in a plane spare a thought for the fact that your life depends on those O rings in the system holding up!

A Valliant staff engineer told me that most of the blockages he sees in heat exchangers can be linked to muck being downloaded from header tanks when the system is drained.

A mild steel container such as the average household radiator is going to corrode and produce some kind of debris, however, the process can be slowed down by using inhibitors. Copper and SS are a different matter - both are alloys, and so the quality of each will dictate how well they perform in use. Copper pipe in reasonable nick has been found in Roman ruins. Good quality SS is very resistant to corrosion, and I doubt that corrosion would ever be a problem with a SS heat exchanger unless a problem was caused by a chemical within the water - most metals don't like common-a-garden salt, including aluminium alloys, and poor quality SS can be affected by salt. However, water in a CH system is the same water that goes round and round, and so the content of such water is bound to be fairly stable. Limescale for example, requires fresh water to be constantly introduced and heated to produce a scale. Magnetite (as the name suggests) is magnetic, and so will generally stay in the radiator in which it is produced. The chemicals used to clean CH systems work because they lift magnetite into suspension, making it easier to flush out.

Whereas the problems caused by sludge and scale are unlikely to be all down to myth, the companies who make flushing and cleaning chemicals have a vested interest in exaggerating the problems. If a radiator is so full of sludge that it doesn't heat up as it should, then obviously it needs cleaning out.

For a CH system to become severely sludged, or for a heat exchanger to become blocked by scale, the process is going to require freshly oxygenated water, probably a lot more than can be passed by a plastic pipe, even if it hasn't got a barrier.

How many people on here can honestly say they always check the header tank for muck and debris before draining a system?

Much easier to say that a blocked heat exchanger can be traced to plastic pipe than admit that it's become blocked due to muck being introduced into the system from the header tank, or some other external source.

Whilst copper is usually the best choice, plastic pipe is another - much hated and defiled as it is by many people in the trade.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

There is a lot of cobblers talked about the use of plastic in central heating systems - plastic has been widely used in the manufacture of vehicle radiators for the past 25 years without major problems - with water at 100c +.

Much easier to say that a blocked heat exchanger can be traced to plastic pipe than admit that it's become blocked due to muck being introduced into the system from the header tank, or some other external source.

Whilst copper is usually the best choice, plastic pipe is another - much hated and defiled as it is by many people in the trade.

I am just struggling to explain all the sludged up sealed systems. Or the ones been build from scratch.

And I hope your car mechanic does not fill pure water into your cooling system. Even the use of tap water is to avoid unless there is an emergency and nothing else available.

Just as I hope that you would see the difference between algae etc. and magnetite. A magnet helps on that.

As for the planes, are you gonna go and service the boiler/pipe system at a similar frequency? Do your customers allow that to you?

 

[Tap dancer]

As a so-called "custard" (a term that I feel is derogatory to the people who pay you) I would always specify copper for any work I had done, and would avoid buying any house that was plumbed with plastic.

This goes back to very bad experiences with my 3rd house, which used plastic pipes.

PS They were grey plastic, but don't know what they were called.

 

[petercj]

I am just struggling to explain all the sludged up sealed systems. Or the ones been build from scratch.

And I hope your car mechanic does not fill pure water into your cooling system. Even the use of tap water is to avoid unless there is an emergency and nothing else available.

Just as I hope that you would see the difference between algae etc. and magnetite. A magnet helps on that.

As for the planes, are you gonna go and service the boiler/pipe system at a similar frequency? Do your customers allow that to you?

So how do you explain the conclusion that those sludged up systems are due to the use of plastic pipe?

The pressure inside a vented system is considerably greater than the 14 lbs per square inch on the outside of the pipework, so how does air get sucked in? If there was a vacuum inside the pipe and no barrier, then I could see how it might happen!

Accepting that copper is generally the better choice than plastic, I do believe plastic pipe gets made a scapegoat for all kinds of ills and mistakes made when fitting systems.

Due to an extension before I bought the property, a third of my home is done in plastic, and there have been no problems with it since the mistakes made by the plumber / GSR who fitted it were put right, i.e. using it right up to the boiler, not clipping as required, and muddling up flow and return - he connected the boiler up the wrong way around! It's not just DIY'ers that create problems when using plastic.

If someone on here asked about a leak in copper pipe, the general response would be: "well it sometimes happens", but if it was plastic there would be a queue of people claiming it was evidence that plastic is no good.

I do see the long-term security of the O rings as a potential problem - as I recall, the manufacturer's say they are good for 25 years, but what then? Some kind of sealer that can be left permanently in the system maybe. Sooner or later it's going to be a problem for someone to solve, that's for sure.

Probably only a matter of time before plastic radiators become the norm, so hang on to your headache tablets.

 

[Blumper]

...oh dear, we have bitten the hand that feeds us, a paying custard...!

 

[Doodlebug]

There is a lot of cobblers talked about the use of plastic in central heating systems - plastic has been widely used in the manufacture of vehicle radiators for the past 25 years without major problems - with water at 100c +.

O rings have been used in aero-engineering for decades - next time you take off in a plane spare a thought for the fact that your life depends on those O rings in the system holding up!

A Valliant staff engineer told me that most of the blockages he sees in heat exchangers can be linked to muck being downloaded from header tanks when the system is drained.

A mild steel container such as the average household radiator is going to corrode and produce some kind of debris, however, the process can be slowed down by using inhibitors. Copper and SS are a different matter - both are alloys, and so the quality of each will dictate how well they perform in use. Copper pipe in reasonable nick has been found in Roman ruins. Good quality SS is very resistant to corrosion, and I doubt that corrosion would ever be a problem with a SS heat exchanger unless a problem was caused by a chemical within the water - most metals don't like common-a-garden salt, including aluminium alloys, and poor quality SS can be affected by salt. However, water in a CH system is the same water that goes round and round, and so the content of such water is bound to be fairly stable. Limescale for example, requires fresh water to be constantly introduced and heated to produce a scale. Magnetite (as the name suggests) is magnetic, and so will generally stay in the radiator in which it is produced. The chemicals used to clean CH systems work because they lift magnetite into suspension, making it easier to flush out.

Whereas the problems caused by sludge and scale are unlikely to be all down to myth, the companies who make flushing and cleaning chemicals have a vested interest in exaggerating the problems. If a radiator is so full of sludge that it doesn't heat up as it should, then obviously it needs cleaning out.

For a CH system to become severely sludged, or for a heat exchanger to become blocked by scale, the process is going to require freshly oxygenated water, probably a lot more than can be passed by a plastic pipe, even if it hasn't got a barrier.

How many people on here can honestly say they always check the header tank for muck and debris before draining a system?

Much easier to say that a blocked heat exchanger can be traced to plastic pipe than admit that it's become blocked due to muck being introduced into the system from the header tank, or some other external source.

Whilst copper is usually the best choice, plastic pipe is another - much hated and defiled as it is by many people in the trade.

Can I ask, what do you do? What is the main role of your job? What are you? Are you an engineer? A doctor? What qualifications and experience have you got? How many sludged up blocked systems do you came across? Sorry for all the questions, just curious.


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[petercj]

Can I ask, what do you do? What is the main role of your job? What are you? Are you an engineer? A doctor? What qualifications and experience have you got? How many sludged up blocked systems do you came across? Sorry for all the questions, just curious.


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Attack the argument, not the person dear boy!

 

[Doodlebug]

Attack the argument, not the person dear boy!

Sorry, you've lost me there. Who's attacking who? Not sure where you got that from. I asked you a question.


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[Millsy 82]

I am not a big fan of plastic and the only time I have used it was when I was site bashing I will personally always choose copper. But most of the problems that I have come across with it have been installation faults ( or somebody undoing the fitting thinking their funny) I would have no problems with fitting plastic in my house but I would have to fit it same as with copper as alot of the time its not the material but the muppet fitting it.

As long as its all tested correctly ( the last lot I used was poly plumb and the rep told me to test it to 10 bar so that the grippers would dig into the pipe and hold it and never been called back to any of it that was also their way out of claims if the pipe didnt have the marks they wouldnt pay out) then I cant see a problem.

 

[Gray0689]

Plastic is great all new hoses should be done in it for rads all to manifolds no joints and no fittings

 

[Resolute]

Plastic is great all new hoses should be done in it for rads all to manifolds no joints and no fittings View attachment 7801

You'll be fitting plastic rads next!

 

[Gray0689]

Where in 2012
new houses should have total control the days of upstairs downstairs and hot water only are gone should be every room has separate temp controls

 

[Gray0689]

You'll be fitting plastic rads next!

If they where efficient you bet I would

 

[Doodlebug]

You'll be fitting plastic rads next!

I hope you leave your number with this customer. Lol


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[petercj]

Sorry, you've lost me there. Who's attacking who? Not sure where you got that from. I asked you a question.


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I’m a brain surgeon, and I read the posts on this forum between operations for R&R!

I can tell you why you and your colleagues at British Gas see so much sludge, it’s because whilst charging around £25 a month for looking after your customer’s central heating systems (Home Care) you completely ignore the water in the system, i.e. no checking and no topping up of the inhibitor.

Then when the system is sludged up you tell your customers that for a mere £599.00 BG will power-flush the sludge out, and then thereafter you will actually check the state of the water.

No doubt you tell them that all their plastic pipe-work needs replacing as well!

“Looking after your world” … Best advice = read the small print in the BG Home Care contract very, very, carefully.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

[Dannypipe]

You're not really a brain surgeon are you....? Surely you would have said neurosurgeon to sound more realistic.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

So how do you explain the conclusion that those sludged up systems are due to the use of plastic pipe?

Not my conclusion. If you use inhibitor and make sure there is enough present plastic does tend not to sludge up excessively either.

The pressure inside a vented system is considerably greater than the 14 lbs per square inch on the outside of the pipework, so how does air get sucked in?

Who talks about air getting sucked in? And forget about a plastic pipe wall it is mere a thick membrane. How do you guess gets hydrogen into expansion vessels even though the pressure is equal both sides? It simply has to do with the fact that nature is based on chaos so if there is a low concentration on one side and a high concentration on the other side it will try to level them out.

If there was a vacuum inside the pipe and no barrier, then I could see how it might happen!

Accepting that copper is generally the better choice than plastic, I do believe plastic pipe gets made a scapegoat for all kinds of ills and mistakes made when fitting systems.

Agreed.

 

[Dannypipe]

How many people on here can honestly say they always check the header tank for muck and debris before draining a system?

Right here. I do, if it's an old system. I will hop into the loft and plug the tank. I have photo's a plently to prove it as I photograph just about everything I do. Cover your bum syndrome.

 

[Subby]

As a so-called "custard" (a term that I feel is derogatory to the people who pay you) I would always specify copper for any work I had done, and would avoid buying any house that was plumbed with plastic.

This goes back to very bad experiences with my 3rd house, which used plastic pipes.

PS They were grey plastic, but don't know what they were called.

That would be pvc-c, the problem with this stuff is that it tends to be very brittle, and splits. I have been to a call out in a very nice big house which had the living room ceiling come down due to the use of this under the floorboards. The whole house was plumbed with it, and it is way too expensive for the owner have someone replace all the pipes, so he has the constant worry of when another leak will spring.
All plastics are not made equal.

 

[Doodlebug]

I’m a brain surgeon, and I read the posts on this forum between operations for R&R!

I can tell you why you and your colleagues at British Gas see so much sludge, it’s because whilst charging around £25 a month for looking after your customer’s central heating systems (Home Care) you completely ignore the water in the system, i.e. no checking and no topping up of the inhibitor.

Then when the system is sludged up you tell your customers that for a mere £599.00 BG will power-flush the sludge out, and then thereafter you will actually check the state of the water.

No doubt you tell them that all their plastic pipe-work needs replacing as well!

“Looking after your world” … Best advice = read the small print in the BG Home Care contract very, very, carefully.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The inhibitor levels in a central heating system are checked on a first visit inspection at the very start of the contract. The customer is then advised on having the inhibitor levels topped up if needed, it's the customers choice whether they want us to do this work or not, we can't force them. The water in the central heating system is not covered under any contract agreement and it is well displayed in the terms of the contract which the customer gets a fresh copy of every 12 months. The exclusions of the contract are no longer in small print but are laid out in a way that the customer actually can't miss them, but how many customers read the terms and conditions of their contract, yes you guessed it, not many. The inhibitor levels are not checked every year on an annual service visit as this is not part of a service. Their is certain things that are out of control of British Gas, ie: customers or decorators removing radiators or installing fancy modern radiators and not topping up the inhibitor levels. The customers who do top up there inhibitor don't know what they are doing and just put it in the header tank where it stays. What is it you expect British Gas to do? It's clearly written in the terms and conditions of the contract what customers are getting for their money before they take out the contract.
I look forward to your reply Petercj.

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[Dannypipe]

Doodle, someone else made the presumption that you were a BG employee, and you quickly defended yourself by stating you were infact anti BG.

I think this happened as far as my memory serves me correct. Can you confirm? Just interested.

 

[Doodlebug]

Doodle, someone else made the presumption that you were a BG employee, and you quickly defended yourself by stating you were infact anti BG.

I think this happened as far as my memory serves me correct. Can you confirm? Just interested.

When did I state I was anti BG? Lol I may have stated that I don't agree with everything that British Gas do, but I deal with facts and I don't like it when people make assumptions. British Gas make mistakes but the important thing is that when they make mistakes they put it right. Did you know that British Gas is now regulated by the FSA so it's in the companies interest to deal with any complaints at ground level.


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[DirksPlumbing]

That would be pvc-c, the problem with this stuff is that it tends to be very brittle, and splits.

If it is gray and brittle it is PVC-U(S). PVC-C tends to be beige and does not contain softener. Therefore it remains flexible for a lot longer. Fitted quite a bit of it long time ago (Friatec). No hassle up to day. PVC-U as well lacks the antibac properties.

 

[Dannypipe]

When did I state I was anti BG? Lol I may have stated that I don't agree with everything that British Gas do, but I deal with facts and I don't like it when people make assumptions. British Gas make mistakes but the important thing is that when they make mistakes they put it right. Did you know that British Gas is now regulated by the FSA so it's in the companies interest to deal with any complaints at ground level.


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I'm not picking on you, but you said and I quote:

'I'm not the British Gas Howard pmsl
In fact I am critical of British Gas myself.'

 

[Doodlebug]

I'm not picking on you, but you said and I quote:

'I'm not the British Gas Howard pmsl
In fact I am critical of British Gas myself.'

Yes that's correct, I am critical of some things they do. Not everyone is perfect.


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[Dannypipe]

For the record, I'm not anti BG at all, infact I have a masive respect for them. It's like if you are religious, you respect the bible/koran or whatever literature suits your religion.

BG have been around a long time, and have a massive wealth of experience.....but they do rip people off. So it's not all the 'good word' LOL.

 

[petercj]

The inhibitor levels in a central heating system are checked on a first visit inspection at the very start of the contract. The customer is then advised on having the inhibitor levels topped up if needed, it's the customers choice whether they want us to do this work or not, we can't force them. The water in the central heating system is not covered under any contract agreement and it is well displayed in the terms of the contract which the customer gets a fresh copy of every 12 months. The exclusions of the contract are no longer in small print but are laid out in a way that the customer actually can't miss them, but how many customers read the terms and conditions of their contract, yes you guessed it, not many. The inhibitor levels are not checked every year on an annual service visit as this is not part of a service. Their is certain things that are out of control of British Gas, ie: customers or decorators removing radiators or installing fancy modern radiators and not topping up the inhibitor levels. The customers who do top up there inhibitor don't know what they are doing and just put it in the header tank where it stays. What is it you expect British Gas to do? It's clearly written in the terms and conditions of the contract what customers are getting for their money before they take out the contract.
I look forward to your reply Petercj.

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The truth of the matter is that all BG provide for the £25 a month they take from their customers who have Home Care is an annual safety check.

The BG adverts are full of reassurance for the customer, i.e. "Looking After Your World" ... "peace of mind, etc, etc" ... promises, promises, which are rescinded by the small print in the contract.

As for dealing with complaints, BG have been fined millions by Ofgem for their poor handling of complaints.

 

[Dannypipe]

I'm just trying to suss you out Doodle. It's my nature to do so!

 

[Doodlebug]

For the record, I'm not anti BG at all, infact I have a masive respect for them. It's like if you are religious, you respect the bible/koran or whatever literature suits your religion.

BG have been around a long time, and have a massive wealth of experience.....but they do rip people off. So it's not all the 'good word' LOL.

If I offer you a product for say £600 and you know you can get product for say £400 but you still decide to take the £600 product, who's ripping who off?


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[Dannypipe]

If I offer you a product for say £600 and you know you can get product for say £400 but you still decide to take the £600 product, who's ripping who off?


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Great answer, and one which I really don't have a smart alec response to.

 

[Dannypipe]

The truth of the matter is that all BG provide for the £25 a month they take from their customers who have Home Care is an annual safety check.

The BG adverts are full of reassurance for the customer, i.e. "Looking After Your World" ... "peace of mind, etc, etc" ... promises, promises, which are rescinded by the small print in the contract.

As for dealing with complaints, BG have been fined millions by Ofgem for their poor handling of complaints.

Do you think the same will be made of other large companies (the AA for example)?

I find it un-nerving the way big business is squeezing out the small firm.

I try to offer the best possible service I can. 24 hour call out, and I personally will bend over backwards for a customer, as I know it helps MY business grow. Big business can offer the same but do the engineers/plumbers really care, or do they just want to get their shift done and go home?

 

[Doodlebug]

The truth of the matter is that all BG provide for the £25 a month they take from their customers who have Home Care is an annual safety check.

The BG adverts are full of reassurance for the customer, i.e. "Looking After Your World" ... "peace of mind, etc, etc" ... promises, promises, which are rescinded by the small print in the contract.

As for dealing with complaints, BG have been fined millions by Ofgem for their poor handling of complaints.

The small print? Where? What small print? Do you really want me to take a photo of the terms and post on here? The exclusions of the contract are printed very clearly and even highlighted. You say £25 a month, who exactly are you referring to? Every customer pays a different price depending on what's system or boiler they have, ie: a customer with an unvented cylinder will obviously pay more than a customer with a standard indirect cylinder. It's like insuring you car, I've got a porsche and you've got a robin reliant, who's insurance do you think will be the most? British Gas fined millions for poor handling of complaint, I don't doubt it, like I have said before, British Gas aren't perfect but are doing there very best to be as close to perfect as is possible. Complaints is something that the company are trying to reduce and I know this as its down at customer facing level that matters.
You don't seem to be reading my posts Petercj, I'm now losing the will to live pmsl


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[Dannypipe]

But all the time you Doodle seem like a metaphorical stick of BG rock.

Crack you in half and it says 'Doodle, British Gas!' - In the middle

 

[Dannypipe]

and I should add, there are a lot more people shouting BG down than supporting them.

 

[Doodlebug]

Do you think the same will be made of other large companies (the AA for example)?

I find it un-nerving the way big business is squeezing out the small firm.

I try to offer the best possible service I can. 24 hour call out, and I personally will bend over backwards for a customer, as I know it helps MY business grow. Big business can offer the same but do the engineers/plumbers really care, or do they just want to get their shift done and go home?

My mate works for himself and I know how hard he works and it's a lot harder than me. He is a very very good engineer and is never short of work because of how good he is. It's a shame that there is a lot of cowboys out there and it's the cowboys that push people to coming to British Gas. You will always have work if your good, as most of your work will eventually come from word of mouth. If a customer is dissatisfied they tell say 10 people but a customer who is satisfied will only tell 5 people, shame but true.


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[Doodlebug]

But all the time you Doodle seem like a metaphorical stick of BG rock.

Crack you in half and it says 'Doodle, British Gas!' - In the middle

Pmsl they pay my wages. To be honest mate it wouldn't matter if it was British Gas or any other company, I will always say what I see. I don't doubt there are a small minority of people who will let the company down. British Gas will always get a lot of stick its the nature of the British people. In America they praise a person or establishment that is successful, in this country it seems people like to criticise anyone who is doing well. British Gas employ a lot of people, isn't that a good thing for the economy?


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[Dannypipe]

I hope so. I am constantly busy. Working late to get the back log done, but I worry because if the phone stops ringing, I can't pay my bills. It's often a pain that the phone rings just when I don't want it to, but it's what puts bread on the table.

I have been offered a job interview with BG a few times, and always declined as my business is my third child and I love it.

Yesterday I worked in so many random places, and ended up in the evening working in a farmers field, in the night (with head torch) fixing a cattle water trough, (I grew up in a village called Cowden - lots of farmers!!).

I just thought, I love this, working for myself, employing a couple of good friends, and meeting new people all the time. I'd hate to become part of the machine. Just clocking in and out. It's not the same. I as take pride in because it's MY business.

I have met some brilliant BG engineers though. The old boys, who's knowledge is just amazing.

 

[Doodlebug]

I hope so. I am constantly busy. Working late to get the back log done, but I worry because if the phone stops ringing, I can't pay my bills. It's often a pain that the phone rings just when I don't want it to, but it's what puts bread on the table.

I have been offered a job interview with BG a few times, and always declined as my business is my third child and I love it.

Yesterday I worked in so many random places, and ended up in the evening working in a farmers field, in the night (with head torch) fixing a cattle water trough, (I grew up in a village called Cowden - lots of farmers!!).

I just thought, I love this, working for myself, employing a couple of good friends, and meeting new people all the time. I'd hate to become part of the machine. Just clocking in and out. It's not the same. I as take pride in because it's MY business.

I have met some brilliant BG engineers though. The old boys, who's knowledge is just amazing.

I admire you mate, you do what I'd love to do but I took the easy option. I like the fact I can switch my phone off at the end of my shift.


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[petercj]

Rumour has it that Doodlebug is a cyborg, and that he was created in a secret BG laboratory located in the Welsh valleys - people say he can stick his finger in a flu and get a totally accurate gas reading flash in front of his eyes!

He can only respond positively to criticism of BG because his reactions have been programmed into his cpu at BG HQ!

He never sleeps, they just stand him in a corner and charge his batteries every 12 hours.

BG plan to release 20 new Doodlebugs over the next 12 months.

;-)

 

[Doodlebug]

Rumour has it that Doodlebug is a cyborg, and that he was created in a secret BG laboratory located in the Welsh valleys - people say he can stick his finger in a flu and get a totally accurate gas reading flash in front of his eyes!

He can only respond positively to criticism of BG because his reactions have been programmed into his cpu at BG HQ!

He never sleeps, they just stand him in a corner and charge his batteries every 12 hours.

BG plan to release 20 new Doodlebugs over the next 12 months.

;-)

Pmsl I once got My finger stuck in the flue of an open flued boiler. I noticed the flue at the back of the boiler looked corroded, so I squeezed down the side of the boiler and poked the corroded area with my finger. My finger went straight through the flue and I couldn't remove it without it cutting into me. Luckily I could just about reach my phone and call a colleague. Ten minutes I was stuck there waiting, that was a long ten minutes, I was thinking all sorts, I imagined the fire brigade turning up and all sorts, I was thinking oh no, I'm gone be in the local papers for this. I was so relieved to see my mate turn up and even more relieved when he managed to dismantle the flue and release me. I nearly did a Croppie and kissed him pmsl


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[Dannypipe]

Well I'm not going to pick on Doodle just because he's BG employed. He can clearly take a joke, and also knows a lot about the business, so it’s an attribute to the forum that he's willing to come on and spend his valuable time advising others.

Now we just need to persuade him to set up his own business, and we'll all be happy!! LOL

 

[petercj]

Well I'm not going to pick on Doodle just because he's BG employed. He can clearly take a joke, and also knows a lot about the business, so it’s an attribute to the forum that he's willing to come on and spend his valuable time advising others.

Now we just need to persuade him to set up his own business, and we'll all be happy!! LOL

I don't pick on anyone - my criticisms are of BG. If Doodlebug chooses to defend BG that's up to him. It's not a personal issue, which I think Doodlebug does appreciate. The cyborg thing is just a bit of banter.